When Work Clashes with Biological Design with Olivia Graham
Okay, Olivia. I'm gonna start in a way that they always tell you you shouldn't start, that's with a three part question. So I hope you're cool with that.
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Number one, what is biological relations? Number two, why did you pursue learning about it? And then number three, what's the value you've gotten since you've gone down that path?
Speaker 2:Great questions. So to start, biological relations is taking the understanding of women and men outside of our modern context. So our modern context is really safe. Most of us are fortunate enough to have a home, to have easy access to food, easy access to water. And because of this, there's a split of humans from other animals.
Speaker 2:Other animals still have to really think about these things. There's many splits between humans and other animals. But from a biological perspective, what humans used to have to, they had these fears, these threats when we lived in the forest. And because of this, we've really lost sight of how we are biologically hardwired as men and as women. And in some ways, like we live in the greatest time in the world.
Speaker 2:Like we are just Abundance is so rich for so many people. But when we become unaware of our biological hardwiring, what we'll start to notice is issues in our relationships, specifically in our marriages. We'll have tensions in the workforce, specifically between men and women. We'll have depression, we'll have anxiety. And all of this in so many ways is rooted because we don't understand our unique biology and we don't understand how our unique biology has a relationship with the other gender.
Speaker 2:And so that's biological relations in a nutshell. And I'm sure we'll double click into a lot of that throughout this hour. But be so kind. Remind me of question number two. And
Speaker 1:that right there is why they tell you you should never do that because you're gonna end up saying it again anyway. So and maybe there's something in how I'm wired that made me do that and bite off more than I I could chew in some ways. Okay. Question two was like, what was the context for you starting to pursue this? Because I I know exactly when it was, but it I work closely with you, obviously.
Speaker 1:You're our coaching manager here. And it was probably in the past maybe year and a half to two years, I experienced like this this passion from you associated with this. Like what spurred that? And then what did the path to you learning all of this look like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in terms of what spurred it from a conscious perspective, just some low grade curiosity. I had some friends who were about to take this class on biological relations and they were talking about the doctor who was going to be teaching it. And I truly just thought that sounds interesting. And I dove in.
Speaker 2:What I now know in hindsight, it really feels like a God thing because at the time, let's see, I had a four year old and a one year old working at Paths for Growth. And I just started feeling really burnt out. Like I felt like work wasn't as fun as it once was. I felt like motherhood wasn't as easy as it once was. I wasn't really enjoying my husband as much as I once did.
Speaker 2:It felt like everything took like this mental extra effort. And this class really opened my eyes to so many reasons as to why that was. And so I just am so thankful and grateful for God's provision in that season. And now I see other people who are in situations like I was experiencing and still do. Like I can still very much slip out of biological design and experience all of those things, especially when both kids are running a fever and there's a work deadline.
Speaker 2:But I now just feel really passionate specifically when I'm talking with our one on one customers when I see, well, this feels really hard because you're not actually approaching this aligned biologically.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I mean, I hear you reference it on our office hours calls. I hear you I you talk about how you're referencing it in coaching calls. I'll never forget, we were at a in person workshop that we were doing with some of our Orthodox Jewish connections and clients up in the New York, in the Brooklyn area. And this is where it clicked for me, the power in what you've learned is we were talking about business growth and I think we were particularly talking about what it looks like to play the role of CEO and work on a business and talking about the creation of an annual plan in conjunction with all of that.
Speaker 1:We were in the Q and A time at the end of the session and a question around distraction and how do you stay focused and how do you manage all of the demands going on throughout the day came up. I gave my answer to that question and it was, I guess it was good, right? But it wasn't like there was this overwhelming response. There certainly wasn't a standing ovation to my answer. But then I'll never forget, I just tossed it to you and I said, Olivia, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Speaker 1:And you took it in a very different way than I took it. And I'll never forget, you said, well, I think this is a challenge that could be perceived differently between men and women. You addressed the women in the room and I saw them like, I mean, just like almost physically nodding their entire body, like saying, yes, we agree with you. And then you kind of even suggested, here's how I could see it could be different for men too, and there was like a physical response. I was like, man, I wish I could get that type of response when I say things.
Speaker 1:But that's for me when it clicked like, oh man, there's something that has deep resonance with people even if they'd never heard the term biological relations. And so I want to get into some of the big things that you've learned and how they apply to leadership and how we lead at home and all of that as well. But first, I'd just love to hear from you, what is, if you were to point to, man, this is the greatest value that I've experienced from what I've learned in this arena, what have you physically tangibly experienced that's different because now you know some of the information that we're going to talk about here today?
Speaker 2:Two fold. I think that when I am interacting with men, I have a dramatically different perspective as to why certain decisions are being made, certain actions are being done. And it just allows a certain collaboration that wasn't, I'm not competing with men anymore. It's like, there's just this beautiful collaboration that I'm getting to experience. And as a mom of two boys, that applies all the way down to my two year old.
Speaker 2:And then I also think I'm experiencing a greater sense of peace, of alignment, of fun and a juicy creativeness that comes when you're not trying so hard, which kind of felt like the first ten years of my career. And when you ask like, what's the greatest benefit? What's the greatest blessing? I would say those two pieces are the things that come to mind right off the bat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really good. Another question that I have before we jump in is it was interesting. You wrote up a whole document of lessons for me just so I could prep myself as we get into this conversation here today. I asked you for five lessons and I think you sent 23, Olivia, so that was a great move. As I was going through that document, I felt as though much of what you wrote was general common sense about how men and women are wired.
Speaker 1:And at the same time, this was bizarre. At the same time as I was reading it, I was like, wow, this could be kind of controversial. And that was just a weird moment for me to realize like this stuff that I actually think is kind of common sense is controversial. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on theories on why that's the case. Why is what we're gonna talk about today, can it maybe ruffle people's feathers?
Speaker 1:And if people start to feel maybe a little bit defensive or a little bit anxious with what we talk about today, any encouragement you would give to them as we kind of walk through this?
Speaker 2:To start with theories, I would really love to hear your just off the cuff theories as to why it could be as well.
Speaker 1:I'm always thrilled when someone says they wanna hear my off the cuff theories. That's really I've
Speaker 2:had, like, two years to sit and think about this, I'm still not sure. Maybe, when I have engaged in this content with men, I have yet to experience a man who has any ruffled feathers. Almost every single man that I have talked to about what we're going to dive into today, he says, this is absolute common sense. And so I think part of why when you read this, it's because you are a man. And men, just because of how your brain is hardwired, I just think it makes sense.
Speaker 2:Women, we are designed to have a greater need for safety. So our brains are hardwired to see, are we safe or is there a threat? The modern world allows women to be safe without needing a man. Like we used to need men to go and kill animals and make the fire and build the fort because we were at home with the children. This day and age, I mean, you don't need that like we once did.
Speaker 2:And I think that the potential ruffling feathers comes when women will hear these things and be like, what, hold on. Woah, woah, wait, what do you mean? You're telling me like all this stuff that's making me feel really safe and secure, that's actually not how I should be living my life in complete control over all of these things because I can, because it's available to me. And so I experienced that. I experienced so many times where I was like, this just feels really against what I was taught.
Speaker 2:Because I think we are taught now as women to to really be able to stand on our own two feet because then we don't need anyone and then we're ultimately safe.
Speaker 1:And so that kind of hits on like how we hope people will listen to this. Like, I would hope you listen to understand, and and that does not mean you have to listen to agree. Listen to understand. And if you disagree, make sure you put that in the comments on the podcast. And, like, I I'd love to hear disagreements because I think that's how we all learn.
Speaker 1:But culturally, can live in a time where we say, don't agree with that and so I'm gonna immediately stop listening. I think that's incredibly unwise and not helpful for anyone. Because what if we're wrong? Then we're never gonna know we're wrong because you just, you know, canceled us essentially. So what I would say and I think it aligns with yours, I've always thought it would be fun to write a post or a book or do a podcast or something about defensiveness that just is called your idols are showing.
Speaker 1:And I think this is an example or can be an example of that. And I don't think I would certainly not be as presumptuous to say this is like, oh, women's idols are showing. I think it's our cultural idols showing And that we have created a society that sends the message every single day, your value is directly tied to your work. Your identity is tied to your work. What are you producing?
Speaker 1:And as a result, frame of reference or line of thinking like what we're about to talk about here today that suggests that, man, maybe women's greatest contribution is not in the office or in the marketplace. Perhaps their greatest contribution is under their own roof with their children and their spouse. That feels radical, right? Because that's basically dethroning an idol. Although it's the way the world has operated for thousands of years, if not longer than that, we've become so entrenched in this new belief system that our value and identity comes from our work in the past two hundred years that it feels like an attack to say something different.
Speaker 1:You have thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I just wholeheartedly agree except for the one part where you said two hundred years. It's like women didn't really enter the workforce until what, the 1920s. So a hundred years ago, this is all really new and yet it took really quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. I'll never forget. I had someone send me a message. I can't remember what social media account it was on, but it was after a speaking gig that I did and this was years ago now. They sent me a message and they were talking about how it was a woman and she sent a message saying she'd spent the past decade of her life really attending to her kids at home and making sure that she was providing a great atmosphere for her husband whenever he came home from work and all of that and doing all of that.
Speaker 1:A very traditional view of a woman's role in the household is basically what she described. And then I'll never forget the exact sentence she said. She said, Alex, I'm done playing small ball. And then she said, like, I'm ready to get to work. And I legit think she was looking for me to, like, applaud that idea.
Speaker 1:What I'm not saying is that she shouldn't go start a business, shouldn't get to work, all of that. What I am saying is the fact that our culture has taught women or taught people in general that taking care of children and providing an incredibly hospitable environment in your house for your family to thrive is small ball, I think that is just devastating to me.
Speaker 2:I agree. I actually remember that message and you telling that to me, like, because it just stuck out so, so much. Well, my hope is that any women listening to today's episode, it's very possible that they feel that way. I have felt that way at times. And my hope is that today's episode will really shed some light onto maybe why you could be feeling that way and some potential steps of what to do and then ultimately some hope when you're in that kind of a situation because that is hard and it's not helpful to just be like, oh, you shouldn't be feeling that way.
Speaker 2:Like that's wrong. That does nothing but perpetuate the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I know you made sure to tell me like, Alex, if we're going to do this podcast episode, I wanna make sure people know like I'm not a PhD in biological relations. Like, how do you think about your role in talking about this? Like, how do you like to think about when you come to a conversation like this, Lydia?
Speaker 2:Yes. My my greatest anxiety before doing this episode was exactly that. And I shared that with you and I said, Alex, look, my work has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. I just find it incredibly interesting. And as a result, I've been studying it for the past eighteen months and I have just experienced transformational change in my marriage, in my way that I parent my kids and in the way I show up at work.
Speaker 2:And so like, I'm just this practitioner and like, I don't know how helpful I can be but I can share some lessons learned. And you were like, Olivia, that's the exact reason you should be able to. So I am no expert. If listening to some of what I'm sharing is interesting to you, then I have some resources for you to dive deeper with experts. But my hope is you'll still gleam some helpful things from this topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's go ahead and say that. Let's say that we're going to provide two resources in the show notes. Number one is we'll provide a list of resources that Olivia would recommend on this topic if you wanna go deeper on this topic. And then Olivia, if you're cool with it too, I'd love for us to put a PDF version of all of the 23 or however many lessons that you wrote down that you And it's really just the lessons that you've learned from your time in this because we're certainly just going to scratch the surface on this today.
Speaker 1:So with that, here's how I'd like to frame kind of as we dive deeper into this topic of biological relations. What are the basic ideas, the fundamental ideas, and you may have already said some of them, but I think they bear repeating, from biological relations that you just find yourself wishing everyone knew? Are there specific things that stand out?
Speaker 2:Yes. Okay. So when you think about the brain, the left side of the brain is thought of as the female side because it dictates our estrogen levels. The right side of the brain is thought of as the male side of the brain because it dictates our testosterone levels. There's a lot of other reasons, but for the sake of this conversation, that's really what you need to know.
Speaker 2:And so it's really important obviously for bare things like reproduction for our estrogen and testosterone levels to be at a healthy place. Now, our bodies are really smart. We adapt given the situations and circumstances that we find ourselves in. And so when you think about testosterone, that is the hormone that's really triggering competition, activity, energy, creativity. It's a very movable action oriented hormone.
Speaker 2:Where estrogen is very much you're nurturing, you're more soft, you're slower, you're more in tuned with other people's emotions, feelings. And so you can see why it's really important specifically for a mother to a baby to have a heightened sense of estrogen. Now, when women enter into the workforce, what is required of them? What is required of them is what testosterone asks of us. And what is a pretty common thing happening amongst women is our bodies are adapting.
Speaker 2:And so in order to keep up with this activity in the workforce, our testosterone levels are having to rise. So then what happens? You go home and all of a sudden, like you're short with your kids, which is not neither here nor there. It's like you don't have that estrogen level that is required to be like soft and gentle when your kids are asking 500 why questions. But what's crazy is like nature won't let like and likes sit next to each other.
Speaker 2:There's this constant balance. So if a woman is increasing her testosterone to keep up in the workforce, then you're going to witness a shift in the man as well. And so his testosterone has to come down and his estrogen has to go up to create this mirrored balance. And so this is where women oftentimes are like, why do I have to nag my husband to like take out the garbage? I just don't get it.
Speaker 2:Like his action just doesn't really seem to be there. Well, this kind of thing is at play. And so the first thing we have to understand about biological relations is this, the way that these hormones are contributing to our behavior. I have one other thing that's really important, but I'll pause in case there's something that you want to respond to.
Speaker 1:I appreciate the pause. That's very thoughtful. I feel like I want to be like Michael Scott when he's like, explain it to me like you would explain it to a first grader. I want to make sure I'm understanding this right. So the way I thought you were going to take that was, well, first of all, correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1:Men and women have both testosterone and estrogen, correct? Okay. And that is normal and good, correct? Okay. And
Speaker 2:it'd be a huge problem if you lacked one of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Okay. The way I thought you were going to take this is men have more testosterone, therefore they are going to act this way. And whenever they act different than that, maybe more passive or or more laid back or or things like that, then they are operating out of alignment with what their testosterone level is telling them to do. But what's interesting is it sounds like what you're saying is that if we start maybe as a pattern or chronically acting in ways that are passive, that are laid back, that are not in alignment with testosterone, it's possible for our testosterone hormone to actually drop.
Speaker 1:Is that what you're saying? Really? So it's not just that the hormone is the cause, it's also the effect of our actions can affect our testosterone or estrogen levels.
Speaker 2:Well, effect, the woman's actions, that's what's crazy, is women impact men. Men don't impact women as directly, but we can come back to that. So to your point, like aligned with why does a man need so much testosterone and why does a woman need so much estrogen? So men are biologically hardwired to do a small handful of things. They're designed to establish a territory, which if you think about the woods, it's basically like your land where your family is going to thrive.
Speaker 2:In modern sense, it could be your job. It could be any number of things that are providing for the family unit. So establish a territory, provide and protect. Biologically, that is what a man is put on this earth to do. For a woman, she views everything from the perspective of the nest.
Speaker 2:So the nest being the family and the individuals in the family. So men think about like the collective tribe where women are like, I'm eye to eye with this one person, this one child. And so because they're nest focused, they are biologically hardwired for safety and security. And so our bodies are really, really smart. The reason that we have these hormone levels is because it helps us align with these things that we need as men and women.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Okay. And so therefore, let's say if a woman in a married couple starts to act more domineering, aggressive, assertive, maybe even starts to take on the role of I gain territory, I protect, I provide, then what you're saying is the man will react to that and the reaction to that well, I would assume one reaction could be tell me if this is true. One reaction could be spike in testosterone that becomes aggressive and dangerous quite frankly or just leaving altogether saying like I can't do this or what you're saying the more often reaction is a drop in testosterone that they then become more of the passive actor in a relationship. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yes. So you're absolutely going to see the situations of like, I'm aggressively now going towards the woman. But what I'm more commonly see is the passive route. And that's because men really love women the way that women love children and the way that children love pets. Like if a woman's listening to this, like you will literally do anything to see your child smile.
Speaker 2:You will literally do anything to make them feel safe and secure. A man views a woman in the same way. And so when a woman becomes more of that aggressive go getter type, the man has it because he's like, I wanna I wanna see her happy. I wanna see her do what she wants to do. He has to become the passive, like the more passive person in the relationship.
Speaker 2:And then as you can probably imagine, like it just becomes this cyclical problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. So and I think I could use you as an example here of Yes. I could use a number of women that I know as an example here where I would say like, obviously they're a woman, so they're wired generally and biologically in the way you're talking about. But whenever I look at you, I'm like, man, one of Olivia's great personality traits is she's assertive and she's incredibly creative and she's a go getter, right?
Speaker 1:Or things that I would say about you. So how do you reconcile those two? It's like, yes, you are a woman, but you are also assertive, creative and a go getter. How do you think about those two things going together? And do you agree with me?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, I mean, as you said a second ago, everybody has testosterone, everybody has estrogen. And so you're not just like this woman laying on the couch eating bonbons like all day long. Like that sounds terrible. Bet every person listening could be like, so women of course have drive, of course have creativity.
Speaker 2:I feel like so much of the creativity in the world comes from women. But what we have to realize is that women don't have the same longevity as men. So this is what I experienced. All throughout my twenties, I was a picture perfect go getter type. Like I was in sales, I started a business, everything about like how I focus my time, energy, etcetera.
Speaker 2:It was about growth and success. Because of the modern workforce, like women honestly have the skill set to do really well because we are more natural at interpersonal relationships. Intuition is really strong in women because of our high emotional IQ that allows us to really read rooms and situations like the forest where people go hunt is now the modern workplace and women actually do incredibly well in that environment. But what you'll tend to experience is you'll hit your thirties and your male counterparts like men are inexhaustible. They can just keep going and going and going.
Speaker 2:And then you're going to suddenly like start having children and you're just going to feel really tired. You're gonna be like, Oh my gosh, like this used to be so easy for me. Why in the world does this suddenly feel like such a heavier lift? And it's because of these biological differences. And so you have kind of a couple choices.
Speaker 2:You can either choose to do everything you've been doing, which is kind of gonna result in further fatigue as a woman, greater drain on the family unit, frustration, bitterness, kind of falling into a victimhood mentality while your male counterparts are just like cruising and going. Or you can choose to show up and work differently in a more feminine way. And that's what I've really been trying to learn these past eighteen months is how can I still produce really beautiful results without it having the same like intensity and edge that it once did that was kind of draining me?
Speaker 1:I love that you that you kind of highlight that there's well, you highlighted two options and I think there's also a third option that I I think it's okay. It's it's exactly what Aspen did. Right? Aspen is my wife. Right?
Speaker 1:It's like option one is ignore all the signals, double down. Option two is acknowledge how you're wired and creatively figure out how to work in alignment with that. And then option three is saying like, man, my season of work might be done for a period, for a season, or it might be done forever. And like my work is now at the home and that's what I do now. And And it's wild to me though that I actually really admire Aspen for it because we collaborated on the decision that she was going to stay home, but obviously I let her in some ways lead on the ultimate decision around that.
Speaker 1:And there's just so much pressure today that says you can't do that. It's wild. And if I was in her shoes because there's so much pressure, even if it was something that I wanted to do, I don't know that I would have felt okay doing that. But there's three options essentially is what we're saying. Yeah?
Speaker 2:Yes. Absolutely. And what's really interesting, I'm still kind of chewing on if I believe this is 100% true, but I believe that it is possibly true, is that pressure that Aspen is experiencing doesn't come from men, it comes from other women.
Speaker 1:For for sure it does. And what's crazy is and this is Aspen's personality type in some ways. She's a nine on the Enneagram, I actually don't think she experiences it as pressure. I think she felt very confident in her decision. I'll never forget whenever she said, Alex, I think my dream job is to be a mom and that's just what I want to do.
Speaker 1:And it was just so cool for her to say that and then to confidently execute on that. And God has really provided for us to be able to do that. But I do think that there is a lot of cultural and external pressure that would look at that statement, my dream job is to be a mom and say, oh, you are less than.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But I also think, and I can think of, I I mean, I think of you as a great example of this. I also think of my sister as a great example of this. I also have a really good friend in my small group that I would think of as an example of this, of like, I think all three of you love work and like you really enjoy the role that you get to play at work. However, I mean, is it safe to say like you're operating at your best when you don't just approach the work the way you did in your 20s, but rather you modify the way that you approach the work and try to align your approach to your design? Is that a good way of summarizing it?
Speaker 2:Yes. Which is perhaps a good segue into some of the family ecology that we've talked about of what it looks like to be a woman who does work knowing that in some ways this is going to be a bit of tension in your biological design, but how to make it work and get a feedback loop in your family to know, am I aligned or am I misaligned?
Speaker 1:Are you saying that if you're going to be a woman that's going to play the role of mom, wife, and employee in the marketplace or business owner in the marketplace, you will likely experience tension around that. And that tension is not necessarily something that you're going to do away with. Rather, it's a tension to be managed in a healthy way?
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%. So it's a kind of layered. So like I love the work that we do with Path for Growth. I find it so intellectually stimulating. I love the mission that we're on.
Speaker 2:I love the social component with the team. I love all of these aspects to it. But at the end of the day, there is always this tension between when I leave to go to work and my children. And I think that any woman would say I experienced the same. Like there's just this tension.
Speaker 2:Now I choose to wrestle with the tension and pay really close attention to the feedback loops in my family to know, is this still healthy and good?
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's so many doors that that opens, I think. But one of the things that comes to mind for me as you say that is like this is a tension that women are engaging with if they play those three roles is what you're saying. Or they are experiencing it, they're engaging with it or not might be a different story. But if they're playing the role of mom, wife, and employee or business owner and particularly if you have team members on your team and you're a business owner and probably particularly if you're a man that's a business owner, it would be really wise to keep in mind that that's a tension that's going on.
Speaker 1:Not because you have to bow down and change your company's policies or structure to accommodate for that tension but maybe more just so that you're not entirely unempathetic to the reality of what it looks like to play all of those three roles well. Because I bet if you're not empathetic to that, my guess is you're either not going to get that individual's best performance over an extended period of time or number two, they're just going to leave. Like you're not going to retain that person.
Speaker 2:Exactly. To that first point, I mean, as we already said, women are incredibly valuable in the workplace. And to the scenario you pointed out where it's like a male CEO business owner who has women on the team being aware of this tension. And as you said, like you're not changing all the company policies, but something I love about Path for Growth is that we have the core value, freedom and responsibility. And I'm very aware of what my responsibilities are in my role.
Speaker 2:I'm very aware of what my responsibilities are in my home. And we have the freedom for me to have like the fluidity to serve both responsibilities really well. And I know that benefits our team at Paths for Growth, but I couldn't do the work that I do if I was being like suppressed by the tension of like a traditional job, like a traditional workplace, maybe nine to five type thing.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. You know, it's interesting because I I I don't know if that I necessarily plan for this podcast to be largely about women in the workplace. Obviously, that's the perspective that you can distinctly speak from because you are, spoiler alert, a woman. Yeah. And we don't have to part too long here.
Speaker 1:If this is actually interesting to people and they wanna go deeper in this, maybe we could do a follow-up episode. If you have someone that you would recommend as a guest, that could be really interesting too. But can you clarify, what does it look like when a man is operating outside of his design? Just give us a picture of kind of what that looks like. So maybe men can kind of self evaluate themselves and say, am I operating in alignment with my wiring and what I was created for?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So men, when they are operating outside of their design, they are depressed, they're lethargic, they've lost like vision and aim. And so whenever I am interacting on office hours, our internal group coaching sessions that we do, and somebody comes to the table and they say something like, I have this team member. And they were at once this great team member, but now like I can't get them to do anything. My immediate thought is, okay, something's going on related probably to his wife, but it could be to his children.
Speaker 2:It could be to maybe like a promotion that he didn't get that he was thinking was gonna like really set himself up again. If we go back to men are territory focused, they're always looking to expand their territory. So like, was there a certain failure around money that happened recently? Because all of these types of behaviors are related to what, again, a drop in testosterone. And so it's a really interesting thing to be mindful of because I lead all men.
Speaker 2:And so it's something that if you don't really address it pretty quickly, it can reap some pretty horrific outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What's wild is anecdotally, I can say this, depressed, lacking vision, lacking aim, really very little assertiveness, no sense of pursuit in their lives. I think it's actually probably safe to say a majority of the men that I meet are experiencing some combination of those things. A lot of the men it is for sure the case that a lot of the men that I know personally are experiencing a lot of those things. Is that indicative of the way the world is structured right now might not be conducive hospitable to men acting like men.
Speaker 1:Is that what's going on there from your perspective?
Speaker 2:100%. Like this might be the most controversial thing I say on this podcast is women in a narrative perspective, like what you read and what you see is like, Oh my gosh, poor women were so suppressed. The patriarchy, all of that jazz. Men, they're just like really like putting us down. That, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Like are there examples of men treating women poorly? 100%. But when you look at the modern world, it benefits women. It's created this world where women don't need men and men need to be needed. Like they're literally put on this earth to be needed by their woman and therefore by their tribe.
Speaker 2:And the second they're not needed, their entire purpose gets thrown out the window. And men like intuitively know this. And so they don't want to just be wanted by their wife. Like they want to be truly needed by their wife. And like when that's or like in the workplace or wherever it is, like whatever they see as their territory.
Speaker 2:And when that's not happening, well then the depression's really going to come in. So that would be an example of like, I'm not aligned with what God put me here on this earth to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I heard Ben Shapiro once say, and and the reason why I remembered this quote, this was years ago, I think, now that I've heard it, but I remembered it because it it resonated so much with my actual experience. Not like I chose this, but it it was what happened to me, is men will do nothing until they feel like they have to, and then they will do everything.
Speaker 2:And it
Speaker 1:was wild. Like, before I was married to Aspen and now we have Lily, like, I had, like, seven t shirts, a couch, a TV that stood on a t a table that wasn't even meant for a TV. Zero, like, zero decorations, zero furniture. It was the blandest, most basic apartment ever. Right?
Speaker 1:And and I was thrilled. Right? I was so happy. Like, I loved my life. I was totally good.
Speaker 1:Right? Because it's like, who was I who was I providing for? I was providing for me. I don't need much. Right?
Speaker 1:I can fit everything I need in a Rubbermaid bin. The minute the minute it was crazy. The minute Aspen entered the picture and then especially now with Lily entering the picture, it was like I had this insane motivation to come to work with, honestly, a little bit of a sense of aggression about me, like a a little bit of sense of excitement about me because I felt like the stakes of me doing what we're doing within the business were now so much bigger than just my personal needs because those were met a long time ago. And then you add on top of that, you know the personal context around this, we've had some medical challenges with our nine month old daughter. She turned my nine months old yesterday.
Speaker 1:Thankfully, 98% of the time she's happy, but we've also spent more time in the hospital in the emergency room with my nine month old daughter than I've spent in my entire life, right? And so it's a very scary situation that we still don't have answers on and we're praying a lot for. But what's crazy is I am sleeping less right now than I've ever slept in my entire life just because of the nature of her condition. And I have so much energy for work right now. And I think it's a God thing, but I also think it's a wiring thing because I'm like, I'm seeing these medical bills and I'm like, I gotta get to work, and I'm like excited about it.
Speaker 1:It's like, I've got something to do, and I think that's what you're talking about. It's like we need something to fight for.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That is such a practical example. Again, if we go back to territory, provide, protect, how do men like tangibly tactically provide and protect? Well, they leave and go get resources. And you're saying like, I'm now so motivated to go out and get resources for my expanded territory, my now wife and my now daughter, which I didn't have that before.
Speaker 2:And I've reflected on you and your lack of sleep often the past month or so because one, I'm like, oh, I really hope he's sleeping at night. But two, I've experienced seasons where I'm really lacking sleep and I can't show up to work. Like I'm literally like, I need to be at home holding my baby. Like I've expressed to you, Alex, if I were ever to have a third baby, like it's really important to me that I have a very extended maternity leave because it's like crippling anxiety to me thinking about not providing that nest and safety and security for that. And so I could do two things.
Speaker 2:I could be like, why can't I be more like Alex? Like, why can't I just like suck it up and have never ending energy and just show up to work sleep deprived? And many women do and many women have to, which is also part of like the sad piece to this. Or I can soften into who I am designed as a woman to be, accept it, and then just try to align myself to that to the best of my ability. Because the same thing would be true of men.
Speaker 2:Like if you were in this situation with Lily and you were physically being kept from going to work, well, would be the thing that would be giving you crippling anxiety. You'd be like, I have to get out there. And so we're just wired like dramatically different in crisis.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is probably as much on the adult content side as we've ever gone in this podcast but it stood out to me whenever I heard it. I actually think it's relevant to the group of people that we work with. I just want to share it in service of the people that we work with. I heard something years ago quoted.
Speaker 1:It'd be interesting to look up the studies on this, but what I heard from a reputable source was they said that the data has been looked at when there's a big game like a Super Bowl or a World Series game or a basketball game or something like that, basketball championship game, something like that, college football national championship, the data of the two opposing cities that are represented in the game has been looked at. Predominantly, sports are being watched largely by men, Not all by men, but the majority of viewers is, in general, men. And what's crazy is the team that gets defeated, there is a noticeable spike in that city and that area accessing pornography that evening. Well Which is just devastating. It's so sad, but also in light of what you're talking about, it actually makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yes. And we can take it out of the realm of sports and just say like, man, when you have an expectation or have something that you're aiming for or have something that you hope to see happen that you're pursuing and it gets shut down or you lose, right, you go to your coping mechanism. And we live in a culture today that reinforces passivity by just saying, you don't have to pursue anything. We're going to put everything on a buffet for you in the most toxic possible way. And I think that creates this cycle where instead of being prompted to get up, brush off your knees, wipe off the blood in the dirt, and get back to the pursuit, we can just like lay down and become these passive victims of our life.
Speaker 1:And it's as easy as ever for a man to stay there, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes. So as you're saying this, there's maybe layers to this that we'll have to dissect. But what came to mind is let's now bring this back to business owners. So you're a man, you own a business and you have a vision, you have an aim and it doesn't go according to plan. So similar to like the sports, they lose, etcetera.
Speaker 2:And so what can happen? Let's assume that this man is like at the height of his testosterone and he has a failure. So he doesn't kill the bear and drag it home to his family. That's like literally what's happening in your DNA in those situations. So he goes home to his wife and he says, Honey, we had this big failure at work, which is a very relational makes sense thing to do.
Speaker 2:The wife, she really can make or break this situation. She can allow him to wallow and be like, Oh, tell me how you're feeling. Which intuitively is like what I would want to do. But I've just not seen this too many times that I have to call attention to it. Tell me how you're feeling.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry. Oh my goodness. I get so sad. All that does is like bring the man lower. And so the woman, she really has to kind of call him up to be a man.
Speaker 2:A man needs to go truly like for the most part with his failures to other men. And those are the people that can really hold that disappointment with him in a way that's not going to allow him to fall into this depression and passivity. Because it's just like, again, like a biological yin and yang, like they have the testosterone so like we can raise them back up. And I've seen this like time and time again with our coaches. Like they come to us with really hard things and the coaches are able to talk to them about it, but really then like affirm them in who they were created to be.
Speaker 2:And then they can go back out, kill something and drag it home.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Man, so good. And there's so much as a man that listens to podcasts about being a man that's healthy and effective and all of that. There is so much right now that talks about the importance of being in community with other men and the rarity of being in community with other men. It's clearly what's going on there.
Speaker 1:Like the biological thing that's happening there is you're getting around people that help you realign to your design in so many ways, it sounds like. Okay, I'd like to maybe just collaborate with you for the final few minutes on this podcast on just what are strategies for leading men well that work in your business? And you lead three men right now, Olivia. You've got three male direct reports and you've got male direct reports at home too. And you co CEO with your husband.
Speaker 1:So what does it look like to lead men well? And then what does it look like for a business owner or CEO to lead women well in the marketplace? The other thing that I want to mention as we get into this is we wanted to record this podcast as the beginning of a conversation that will really, I think, come to fruition at our in person experience in October in Austin, Texas. The theme of that experience we've talked about it a lot on this podcast now is long game leadership. And I'm excited because I've kind of challenged Olivia.
Speaker 1:Acting in alignment with your design and wiring is part of being able to play the long game. It is unsustainable to act out of alignment with the way you were created and designed. And so it's really important information, I think, to be aligned on. And so thankfully, she agreed to be preparing that talk. And so we've got a handful of months that we're going to be preparing.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm just excited. I'm going to be taking notes on your talk, Olivia. But that experience is currently, I think, 70% sold out. So we'd love to have you all join us in Austin, Texas. We'll put the link with all the info on that in the show notes of this episode.
Speaker 1:But with that, Olivia, let's start with the topic of leading men since that's where we just left off, and then we can go to leading women well and what we can do to lead women well. I also think we should provide the caveat here that no one is advocating that you have to do 180 degree transformation of your organization overnight. But it would be wise to be aware of these realities and to try to operate in alignment with them is what we would say.
Speaker 2:Yes. Okay. So as I think about your question, I'm gonna answer it as a woman leading men. And if you want, we could discuss what it looks like as a man leading men.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because there's it's kind of a multi faceted answer.
Speaker 1:I think that's great.
Speaker 2:Okay. So as a woman, I am constantly aware that men view help and support as very different things. Women view them as the same thing. When you tell a man or ask a man, can I help you? You're basically saying, I don't think you're capable of this.
Speaker 2:And again, if we keep going back to nature, that's really dangerous to not have the skills to survive in a dangerous environment. And so when I'm thinking about my three men that I lead, I'm not perfect at this. I very much can mother hen, I'm very aware of that, but I'm trying to be mindful of taking away, can I help you? And more so approaching it from how can I support you? So support is different because it's like, you're more than capable of like killing that bear.
Speaker 2:Can I support you by cooking it? Or, so you're basically asking like what additional things would support you in making your job easier? So that's a really important distinction because remember, if activity and drive and competition come from the testosterone, we're always really trying to emphasize to a man like you can do this. Now, this is obviously assuming like right seat, right bus, things like that. I'm specifically talking about, I have this really great team member who is in a position that they have the skill sets for.
Speaker 2:Why would they not be successful? Like we still have times where they're not successful. This is addressing that piece to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So good. The only thing that comes to mind for me as a man leading men, I guess it's not the only thing, but it's the thing that I'll hit on is it was actually I I could point back to a story. I'll never forget it. It was at my first job after college.
Speaker 1:It was a guy that helped me get that job. He also worked at the place that I was working and he was a mentor and friend of mine. It was like ninety days into the job and I sat down with him for coffee to ask like, how do you think things are going? And he asked me, how do you think things are going? And I said, I think they're going good.
Speaker 1:And people, all these people have told me they're going really good. Right? I thought I was about to get a bunch of compliments is essentially what I thought. And he literally looked at me and he said, Alex, I didn't bring you here to do a good job. And I know you are capable of so much more.
Speaker 1:You've got a higher gear in you. And I get that other people might be impressed. As for me, I'm severely disappointed because I see you leaving a lot of time, energy, and effort on the table and I know you're capable of more. And I think certain people would take that as an assault. And
Speaker 2:find that awesome. That's such a great story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes. Praise God for Dan Underhill and for this conversation, right? Cause it was transformational for me. I can't imagine a context in which he could say that to a woman and that would go well. I just I I can't think of it.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't seem like the right tone, the right approach, and even just the dynamic of a man telling a woman that just doesn't seem right.
Speaker 2:And in the reverse, I mean, I can imagine times where women have said things like that to men, but it doesn't reap the same result. It like suppresses the man. Where in your situation, it's like, I'm calling you up to be a greater man Because a woman a woman can't teach a man how to be a man. So only a man can talk to another man that way.
Speaker 1:Man, that's that yes. I that's so good. And and because that's how I I mean, I I could literally point back to that day and I would say I have been better since that day. And that was over a decade ago. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, just felt called up. And and I looked at him and I said, he's absolutely right. But then the other part of that story that I didn't share is like, he said, Alex, I love you. I care about you, and I'm severely unimpressed. And so I think it's probably the leadership part of that is affirm and challenge.
Speaker 1:Yes. I think men lack affirmation from men a lot right now, and you become a really impactful male leader of other men when you go out of your way to overtly, and I would even say emotionally, affirm the men that you work with, but then like build the relationship that can sustain a level of deep convicting challenge and confrontation because I mean, that just made a massive impact on me.
Speaker 2:100%. Yeah. That kind of comment makes no sense out of the context of relationship because he didn't abandon you after saying that. Like I'm sure that you guys continue
Speaker 1:That also wasn't our first conversation, right? I don't think I would have responded as well if that was the case.
Speaker 2:Right. Okay. So then to the question about leading women in the So women are the chief energy officers of the home. It is just an undisputed thing. And so you have to realize that with women, her first fruits are going to go to the home.
Speaker 2:And you can fight it or you can in some ways like nurture it and accept it. And what's really crazy is when you do that, she's so charged up assuming that things are healthy in the home. Like we're kind of assuming a lot here and that's kind of where it's like, Oh, if we ever did a two part to this topic, like let's spend some time talking about the family feedback loop. But assuming that that's all well and good, then the woman gets energized from the family unit. And that's where she can come back with her overflow into the workplace and really provide great value.
Speaker 2:And the second you try to get her to choose, like really choose between the two, she's always going to choose the family. Even if she doesn't directly like quit, that's when you're going to have issues. But if you can really like fluidly allow that, then you're going get all of the best of women. The intuition, the creativity, the fluidity, the relational rapport, all of that will come back to the workplace.
Speaker 1:I actually think there's one thing you said in that that I think I disagree with, but I'm super willing to end on an argument if we need to. I think you said if you force her to choose, she will always go to the family. And I think it's devastating, but I think I can think of examples where a woman was forced to choose and she didn't choose the family and it was against everyone's best interest. It was obviously against that woman's best interest and it was even against the employer's best interest because she will spend all of her time bitter and resentful that she's being forced to choose against her family.
Speaker 2:Literally no argument for me. Great call out. I agree. Wholeheartedly agree. I wonder if what it's like she chooses the family and that in the sense that like, that's what I wish I was and therefore falls into the victimhood mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you ever experience a woman who's like showing up victim mentality, that nine times out of 10 means there's something going on with the family and the kids.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I could ask a lot more follow-up questions. The thing that I would encourage people to think about, and this is, I mean, this is, I would say this as a male business owner, this is the tension that I wrestle with is we're not going to a spot where we're saying we're no longer employing women because of the demands of the home. Right? And thank God we're not going to that spot.
Speaker 1:Right? Thank God that there's people like Olivia, women like Olivia, women like Danielle who was on our team for an extended period of time, women like Michelle on our team. Right? That they feel called that they are going to manage both arenas, home and work. I am so grateful for that and I would not go the other direction at all, right?
Speaker 1:However, if we're going to operate in that modern type of work home environment where women are team members and employees or even business owners then I think it would be wise for us to empathize, learn, and also work to be flexible. And I think that's the one that I would park on is I hear a lot of conversations nowadays around European maternity plans. And the conversation oftentimes by a man is always like, that's just so impractical. Our entire economy would shut down. Why?
Speaker 1:Like, we could never do that. It's impossible. To which, you know, maybe it is impractical given the current circumstances, but dude, I I would challenge and affirm you. I would say, dude, you're a freaking business owner. You don't say the word impossible.
Speaker 1:Rather, it would be better for you to say, how could we organize a situation where this could occur? Right? It might be, man, we can't do nine months of maternity leave. We can't make it happen. I would let people into that, say our organization would come to a grinding halt if we tried to do that right now and our government does not support our business the way Sweden's government does.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm throwing Sweden out there. Have no idea if that's the case. Right? But instead of just saying that and stopping there, what you could say is, but we acknowledge the unique demands placed on women whenever they have a child and we value the home and family so much that we've spent some time looking at it and here's what we can do.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And then like actually go above and beyond to try and create a plan that that is life giving to the woman and in the best interest of the business. There's not a reason why you can't figure out a win win scenario is is what I feel.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well yeah. I got a little bit more ranty on this podcast. I thought this was gonna be your ranty podcast, Olivia. I didn't think this was gonna be mine.
Speaker 2:But This topic elicits strong responses, and I love it. I think there's a lot of things that lay dormant and unaddressed that when we start bringing them up, people are like, I actually really I feel a lot of things about that. And I've been there.
Speaker 1:So if people want to follow-up or provide feedback, you can do that in the reviews or just send us an email, teampathforgrowth dot com. We'll keep that in mind, especially if we record more episodes of podcasts in this vein and in this theme. One of the things that I was really excited about, Olivia, is we're now going to have this as a resource for our community so that in our coaching calls and community coaching calls, we can start to use this as a base level of content that we can reference and point to as something that we've all understood, whether we agree with it or disagree with it. As we already mentioned, resources that Olivia has learned from are going to be in the show notes of this episode. We're also going to put kind of the PDF of Olivia's lessons learned that inform this podcast episode in the show notes.
Speaker 1:And then the full talk associated with this topic is something that Olivia is going to be giving at our experience in October titled Long Game Leadership.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for making time to cover this topic. I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Appreciate you. Well, you have it. Thanks so much for joining
Speaker 3:us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes.
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