What Proverbs Can Teach Us About Leadership - Part 2
Okay, so the purpose of these exploration episodes is for us to choose a topic and not claim to be an expert on that topic, but rather to say, ma'am, we're gonna get an hour further on this topic of discussion, maybe and hopefully get a little bit more understanding, get a little bit wiser on the thing that we feel like is valuable for leaders regardless of the stage or space that they lead in. And we've actually done one of these episodes before, and it was so cool to see the feedback on it. And I think you and I got a lot of value from it, and we also heard people talking about it after the fact. So we said, man, let's do that again. And that's really just extracting a few proverbs from the book of Proverbs and saying we're gonna treat these as hard candy, wisdom hard candy that, man, hard candy, if you try to crunch on it, what Tim Keller says is you're gonna break a tooth probably.
Alex Judd:However, if you suck on it, if you allow the wisdom to come out of it, oftentimes it can change your paradigm for looking at life, leadership, business, following Jesus altogether. And so that's really the goal of this episode is we each chose three. We'll see if we get to all six or not. And we're just gonna park on these and have genuine discussion about questions that we're legitimately interested in with regard to these statements about how life, how the world works. And so with that, how about you start with number one?
Alex Judd:What's the first one you chose?
Ben Loy:Cool. So the first one I had was Proverbs fourteen four, where there are no oxen, the feeding trough is empty, but an abundant harvest comes through the strength of an ox.
Alex Judd:So obviously, this is a conversation about animals is what we're
Ben Loy:about Yeah. Talk
Alex Judd:Yeah. Animal hygiene, things
Ben Loy:like that. Definitely. No, I think the thing that stands out to me the most with this, and I think this really weighs into one of our core values of strength is for service, is that the the oxen's work not only feeds themselves, but it feeds those around them, right? With, if there are no oxen, the feeding trough is empty. So not only is there no food for the village or, you know, whatever particular setting this is this is written in, but there's also no food for themselves.
Ben Loy:And so just that idea of operating out of abundance, operating from strength and using that strength to not only serve yourself but serve others is really impactful.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Yeah. And so in some ways, it's a, like, should motivate abundance in some ways. Is that what you're saying there?
Ben Loy:I think so. Or having the the posture of if you're working to serve others or working to feed others, I think intuitively, like, you will end up feeding yourself Mhmm. In in the process.
Alex Judd:What do you make of where there are no oxen, the manger is clean? Like, first of all, is that what your translation says?
Ben Loy:Or well, mine's CSV. So it says where there are no oxen, the feeding trough is empty. So I mean the same thing, manger feeding trough.
Alex Judd:I I was just ask asking what do you make of that? Because for me, it doesn't say empty. It says clean, which is interesting because, you know, it might not actually mean this, but but when I think of like it's clean, it's like, you know, what's a life without any problems? It's like you don't have anyone working for you, anything doing anything, right? When you have nothing, there's no problem.
Alex Judd:It's all clean, but you don't have anything. Right? And and in some ways, it's like if we use that translation, right, which this is ESV, it's like the minute you start to bring on resources or workers or things like that, things start to get a little bit more messy. Mhmm. And and maybe it's, in some ways, setting expectations for that.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I guess in the context of growing, how do you think that this proverb speaks to scaling impact?
Alex Judd:Well, it's interesting. I'm reading right now. I pulled up. It's Ellicott's commentary for English readers So is what this they focus on where no oxen are, the crib is clean, a proverb which may be taken in various ways. Some have seen it as an exhortation to kindness towards animals in consideration of their great use Alright.
Alex Judd:So literal interpretation. I mean, it's actually pretty amazing. Like, there's other proverbs too that highlight the importance of taking care of your beast. Right? Like, don't hurt the thing that is actually helping you.
Ben Loy:And Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Alex Judd:Exactly. And that principle transcends, you know, whether or not you own oxen or not. Right? Others interpret it as the idea that labor has a disagreeable aspect but also brings its reward, whether material prosperity or more enduring reward. So I think what that's highlighting is almost like the more you have, the more problems you have as well.
Alex Judd:And if you're gonna, you know, grow in your career right? Why do leaders get paid more on an org chart? Because they have bigger problems to deal with. Right? And the minute you get rid of all the problems, you actually get rid of all the work as well.
Alex Judd:And so I think that that is a piece of wisdom that could be drawn out of this is like, you don't get to say, man, I just want a lot of oxen, but I don't want any mess. It's like, if you're asking for oxen, you're asking for a mess Yeah. And the two go hand in hand.
Ben Loy:With that, the the idea that, like, if there are more oxen, the harvest will be also more abundant, but there'll also be a greater mess involved. Right?
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's right. And and the two go hand in hand, like, abundance, more mess Mhmm. In some ways.
Ben Loy:Mo money, mo problems.
Alex Judd:I mean, yeah, that's actually the the Ben Lloyd translation of of Proverbs fourteen four.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I guess, is this proverb alluding to problems, though? Like, what is what's being said in this proverb that spins in that direction? Because the second line says an abundant harvest comes through the strength of an ox.
Alex Judd:I guess the way I take that is you have these resources that have been given to you to generate more resource. Mhmm. And, like, that is their gift. And in some ways, one of the implications of the first verse is that, like, but with that gift that you've been given comes responsibility and stewardship. And so a mess in itself might not be a horrible issue.
Alex Judd:A mess that no one takes responsibility for is probably a tremendous issue. And so in some ways, if I'm taking on more oxen, I'm going to create more mess, which means I need to have more systems to properly steward and clean and maintain that which I've been given. And so there's an embedded principle in here that we used to say a lot, and we still do say quite a lot with our coaching clients. Zach on our team kinda popularized this in the Path for Growth community. It's everything requires maintenance.
Alex Judd:And so a lot of times we see the oxen and we're like, I want that! Give me a bunch of oxen! Because we see we don't even see really the oxen, we see the harvest. We say, I want that. Okay, well that harvest requires oxen and those oxen require maintenance.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. And the reason why they require maintenance is because they create a mess. Right? And so let's make the parallel very clear. So we see the harvest.
Alex Judd:We see business owners taking big, like, owners distributions from their business because they only the business has an asset. They've got a team that is hyper engaged. Right? They they have a high degree of freedom in their schedule. Right?
Alex Judd:This is all the harvest of owning a business. What what do they not see? They don't see all the behind the scenes work that goes into creating those results. Right? The systems, the tough conversations, the the nights spent by yourself where you're laying out the plan for that business.
Alex Judd:Right? That's the oxen in some ways. And then we don't also see, man, anytime you have a group of people that is working on anything, there will always be challenges, disagreements, conflict, and whose job is it to deal with that, to scoop in and help at least mediate that, that's gonna be the leader's job. And so we've had this conversation before, but if you want the harvest without the hassle, maybe would be the, like, evangelical, preacher's way of putting it. Like, you can't have the harvest without the hassle is what I would say.
Ben Loy:Yeah. The other thought too that comes to mind on that, and, like, rebuke me if this is taking it farther than than maybe in this context, the proverb is intended. But, like, the strength of an ox, you know, an abundant harvest comes through the strength of an ox. An empty feeding trough implies that, like, not only do ox require maintenance, but they require maintenance to be healthy. And, like, if if your team or the the things within your business that require maintenance aren't healthy, you're not gonna have an abundant harvest.
Ben Loy:Right? Operating from a position of strength by using your resources well to not only grow but to feed and and take care of the things that are under your stewardship.
Alex Judd:Yeah. No rebuke for me. Cool. Yeah. And I'm sure if someone out there has a rebuke for us, they'll let us know.
Alex Judd:But the term that comes to mind for me is you're saying that is a reinvestment. Right? I'm gonna feed all these ox, make them really strong because when I feed them, they're gonna generate a harvest. And then I'm gonna take all that harvest and hoard it to myself. You fool.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, I'm gonna feed all these oxen. They're gonna be really strong, they're gonna generate a harvest, and then some of that harvest is gonna be set aside so that we can purchase more food for the oxen to make them more strong. It's so interesting. We, he's actually speaking at our upcoming experience in Austin.
Alex Judd:His name is JP Krueger. He's just a business leader and business owner in Austin that I so deeply respect. He he is truly one of the most pragmatic people I've ever met and just a deeply practical leader. So that's what his talk is gonna be focused on. But his company gives away 33% of profit every year to causes not related to the company.
Alex Judd:That's wild. So it's 33% of profit dedicated strictly to generosity, and they give it away. And, you know, you talk to him. Again, he's a pragmatist. And you talk to him and he's like, well, I just read it as, like, that's the one place where God says test me and see if I won't open.
Alex Judd:He's like, so I just figured I should probably do that. He said, and so we started at 10%, and we knocked it up to 12, then we knocked it up to 15, and we kept testing, and he kept giving. And what's crazy, one of the things he's gonna show at the experience is that lots of people use this term very liberally to not describe what's actually going on. This is absolutely what has gone on at JP's company, hockey stick growth. And, like, he's gonna show the graph.
Alex Judd:It's absurd, the amount of growth they've experienced, which I would say is probably related. Right? But what's interesting is he said they parked at 33%. And the reason why they parked at 33%, he said, there's a practical reason. Again, practically, he said, because the team got tired of updating the website every time to say, like, we give away 20%.
Alex Judd:We give away 23%. Like, he said, so we said it would be good to have a static number for all of our marketing material that we share that with. But then he said, number two is he said, that was the portion that we have found practically. We could continue to make the whole pie bigger. But he said, we started to fear that if we do any more than that, you're now actually shrinking the size of the pie because you're not able to reinvest into the oxen, essentially.
Alex Judd:And so he gives very generously and reinvest into his business by reinvesting really into his team, and that makes the pie bigger. So that means 33% year over year is growing and growing and growing. But, you know, it would be really actually foolish to say we're gonna up that to 50% and to have a team that's, like, you know, maybe not experiencing the flourishing of the business in the way that their family is growing financially because you're essentially killing the oxen that are creating the harvest. Yeah. Can you draw it a little bit more?
Alex Judd:So you said you connected to strength is for service. Like, how do you connect it to that value?
Ben Loy:I think, I mean, I think the second statement really drives it home for me, but an abundant harvest comes through the strength of an ox. And so if there are no oxen or the oxen are weak, the feeding trough is going to be empty. So not only are the people not getting fed at that point, but so are the oxen. Just the idea that feed comes from a crop, which to be grown and tilled and then, like, harvested in requires oxen. So literally, like, it requires that oxen exist and that they're already have strength to then not only feed themselves to remain strong, but then from there to create abundance for who they're serving and and what their purpose is.
Ben Loy:Right?
Alex Judd:Mhmm. It was at our most recent in person experience that Mike Valatin, who's just a tremendous mentor of mine, he said leaders often go astray when they don't identify who their key stakeholders are. And we've identified one group of key stakeholders, which is our team members. But there's also partners, there's also investors, and then there's also customers. Those are all key stakeholders.
Alex Judd:And then you can think about your life as a leader, like your spouse is a key stakeholder. And probably have other key stakeholders as well. And in some ways, I wouldn't tell them this to their face, but those people are oxen. Right? Like, in in the context of what we're talking about here.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, those people are the things that make this thing run is what we're essentially saying. And I would say you should tell them that. Right? Tell them, like, this thing doesn't exist with you.
Alex Judd:This thing doesn't happen without you. And so it's actually really helpful to ask the question as a leader, who are my key stakeholders in this season that I need to be attending to? Right? And I would make a list of them and then ask, like, what is the equivalent of feed for those people? Because those people are the reason why we're experiencing a harvest if we're generating a harvest right
Ben Loy:now.
Alex Judd:What does it look like for me to feed those people? And we've talked a lot about, you know, financially in one of the examples that we use. We have to make sure that they're financially winning if the company is winning. But also, that's treasure, talent and time. How can you use your gifts to serve those people?
Alex Judd:How can you use your time? I think that's something that I would really encourage leaders on is sometimes the best gift that you could give one of those key stakeholders, maybe it's a customer, maybe it's a partner, maybe it's an investor, maybe it's a team member, right? Is not more money. Maybe what you could give them is more time. If you just spend some quality time with them, they would, like, be so excited to go bring in a huge heart or help you bring in a huge harvest.
Alex Judd:And so just thinking about how we're taking care of the things that God has blessed us with. Yeah. Is there anything else on that proverb you'd like to get into before we go to the next one?
Ben Loy:I don't think so. I'd love to hear what your first one was.
Alex Judd:Well, I'm gonna actually go out of order because I also had one in Proverbs 14. So let's do Proverbs fourteen twenty three. I'll read my translation, and then I'd like to hear yours as well. Proverbs fourteen twenty three in the ESV says, in all toil, there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty. So in all toil, that's essentially in all work is how I read that, there's profit.
Alex Judd:And then, you know, in all talk, like or if you only talk, if that's where you stop, it tends only to poverty. The thing that stands out to me about that is all toil, there is profit. Mhmm. Like, there is not a single piece of work in the context of this proverb that if you do it and you do it well, it doesn't lead to profit in some ways. And I think the bible becomes way more fun if you actually start to trust that it's true.
Alex Judd:Because if you read that and you're like, what if I actually choose to believe this is true? It it changes the way you literally do everything. Yeah. You know? So I'd love to know your initial takeaway from that verse.
Ben Loy:Well, I have circled this verse in my bible, so at least we're on the same page. Good. That mine reads, there is profit in all hard work, but endless talk leads only to poverty. Mhmm. So I guess the idea and the difference there being toil isn't just work, but it's it implies hard work and, like, hard labor.
Ben Loy:I was actually just recently speaking with a friend who has made some pretty big decisions when it comes to his career and just pivoting the direction in which he sees that going and making some steps. And he in submitting his two week notice to his current employer, all of these people came to him and they're like, man, I wish he like, I wish I could be doing be doing what you're doing. Like, I'm so jealous. And I think that's based on a, it speaks to, I think, the culture that he's currently in and the workplace he's in. But also, it's funny because he's making some some difficult decisions to step into what he's stepping into, and some hard calls.
Ben Loy:And those people aren't and I'm sure that those calls would look different and maybe the things that they specifically would struggle with in that decision to leave would look different. But they're also like, we live in a free country. Like, they have they have the ability to leave the same way that he does. And that idea that he's I mean, in in that, he he'd mentioned, you know, people talk about leaving all the time. People mention making changes or pivoting to a different team or something like that, but ultimately, very few actually make the decision to do that.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:What stands out about that particular scenario to me as it relates to this proverb is it's very possible to check into work every single day, and your heart's not there, and because your heart's not there, you're probably not toiling. You're probably not doing hard work. You're probably not doing work with your heart in it, asking the question, how do I do my best? Right? You're just phoning it in.
Alex Judd:Right? Dave used to always say, like, I think, like, when your heart leaves this place, your butt should follow. Right? It's like that's a very Dave Ramsey way of saying it, but it it's probably true. And and why is that in a person's best interest is because if your heart has left the place, if you're not able to do hard work, then it's not going to profit.
Alex Judd:Right? And and, you know, even financially, it won't long term profit, but because it's unsustainable. Right? But you won't get any of the good things that come from hard work done well if you're not doing the hard work well. And so what I wouldn't take this as for, you know, especially younger people listening to this podcast is an excuse to just tap out the minute something gets uncomfortable.
Alex Judd:I think anytime we experience real discomfort associated with where we're working, we should recognize something has to change. My heart's not in this, so something has to change. And the first thing that you should consider changing is you. Mhmm. Instead of trying to change everything around you, trying to change your career, like, you're gonna bring the same you to a new career.
Alex Judd:And so if it's a heart problem, that's not gonna fix anything because I think sometimes, and I could be, like, called guilty of this in previous roles and things like that. The issue is that I have demonized hard work. And if I, that's a problem if I've demonized hard work because hard work is where all the profit comes from.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Challenge in general is where character is built. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? Explain that some. I I
Ben Loy:mean, I don't believe and I think it's I think it's a biblical concept that we're not meant to live a comfortable life. Mhmm. And, I mean, you look at I think we were talking about this even earlier this morning, Hebrews 12, right, the what fatherly discipline looks like and I think I think so many people's perspectives of what fatherly discipline looks like can sometimes feel punitive based on experience and just what we what we see represented around us. And the reality is that, like, a loving father isn't gonna give their child a comfortable life. Like, a loving father is going to at least introduce some level of friction and challenge to build up their their child's character.
Alex Judd:Man, as you're saying, man, I looked up what the Hebrew word for toil is in Proverbs fourteen twenty three, and I need to call Naftali to ask him not the pronunciation of this, but, because he's one of our Orthodox Jewish friends. But it says, Ezeb, which refers to hard, painful, or grievous labor that yields results or profit unlike the poverty inducing idle talk that it's contrasted with. So I actually find that definition really helpful than us just saying hard work because, like, it's literally grievously. Mhmm. Like, it's, painful.
Alex Judd:It literally says painful. Right? And I just think that so often, we equate profitable, like, profitable life even with no pain. Mhmm. And what this is saying is, like, that if you engage in something that is hard, painful, or grievous, that will produce some type of profit.
Ben Loy:Yeah. This this makes me think of Rescue Swimmer School and the first week we showed up, you know, I mean, everybody people come in and there's all kinds of sayings people use to keep themselves committing to and pushing through a school like that and a lot of people come in with a lot of gusto and like, oh, you know, the people are like, oh, I'm I'm only coming out of here with by graduating or in a body bag or something ridiculous like that. And it's over the top and it's ridiculous, but the premise is people come into this school speaking very highly of what they think they are gonna be able to accomplish and what they want to do. And there was a guy in my class, very first week, you went into his his room in the barracks and he had I'm not kidding you. I mean, of sticky notes with all kinds of sayings and motivational quotes on them just lining his his wall, his bunk bed, like, everything.
Ben Loy:And, like, eight days in, he rang the bell and he left. Wow. And it's just that idea of mean, you can you can talk a big game, you can, you can use every inspirational quote in the book and you can say say anything, but when push comes to shove, if you're not actually able to apply yourself and face the toil that's in front of you, it leads to failure, it leads to poverty.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Of the resources that I really love to use for conversations like the one we're having is a resource called Tom Constable Notes, which it's I think he's in Plano, Texas, which, I mean, god bless him, he's in Texas. Right? But he, I think, reads through the bible every year and catalogs and pulls the best of what he reads from multiple commentaries into this PDF resource and pulls it all together. And so it's like this distilled, like, referencing of a wide variety of commentaries.
Alex Judd:And this is what he said on Proverbs four twenty twenty three. The the lessons, I think, particularly would be helpful for your friend in coast guard school. It says, actually working on a project will produce a, quote, profit, but only talking about it will yield no profit but poverty instead. Nehemiah not only had a great vision for the rebuilding of Jerusalem's walls, but he went on to work and brought his vision to pass. The false teachers that Jude warned about were like clouds without water.
Alex Judd:They promised great things but failed to deliver them. Visionaries are a dime a dozen. It is those who follow through and go to work to bring their vision to reality that are successful. And so, I mean, I feel like one of the things that this, cautions us against is be very, I would say, conservative in your commitments and get to work. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:You know? I think a lot of times we try to impress people with our commitments. And in reality, I would way rather people be impressed by the results than the commitments themselves and probably shouldn't making impressing people one of the core driving motives at all.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yeah. In the context of business ownership and leadership, the idea of presenting a really good image and a really inspiring image and casting vision, I think, can be so tempting. And like you said, I think oftentimes we want to impress people with what we're supposedly committing to and not necessarily inclined to back that up with with the consistency of hard work and toil and commitment. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:The other thing that stands out that I really wanted to ask you about because, I mean, we had breakfast this morning and you were discussing that this has been something that's really showed up for you recently is in all toil, there is profit. I've heard you use this phrase multiple times in the past few days, nothing is wasted. Mhmm. Right? Like, so I think the two really, really connect.
Alex Judd:So I'd love for you to double click on that.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I just think if you believe the bible is true and that God is who he says he is and and Jesus is who he says he is, like, we serve a God who is in the business and has committed to restoration and redemption. And I think in that, you see themes throughout the Bible and throughout scripture that that absolutely nothing is wasted. And oftentimes, anecdotally, in other people's lives, I think, especially when it comes to leadership and a lot of inspirational speakers, it seems like their greatest weakness or their greatest fall or struggle in life turns into the catalyst that is used for for God to use them in an impactful way. And I think that that just rings true across the board.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I look at my own life and, like, the decision to move back here a year ago. I moved back here almost back to Arizona from Texas almost a year almost to the day right now. And I look at my life a year ago and, like, the really hard calls I had to make to quit my job, to come back to the state of Arizona, to dive back into community here, to take risks with, helping my brother launch his business. And I just could never have imagined that I'd be sitting where I am today, the only three hundred and sixty five days from now.
Ben Loy:But it's because of the decisions I made at that time when things were really foggy and uncertain and the commitments I made to, in many ways, the core values and convictions that God has given me that I can sit here today and say, oh, no, I'm I'm experiencing fruit and abundance from those decisions and directly from that season. And even the act of making those decisions and commitments in that season when it was difficult, like, God waste nothing. And, like, he used those moments to define my character and to to grow me.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Which is so, I mean, so cool because then I sit down, like, in my morning prayer time, and I'm like, you're telling me that if I stay submitted to God and keep my eyes on glorifying Him and just love people in the process there's nothing that I can do that will not gain profit. It's like, yep. It's like, what? It's literally that simple.
Alex Judd:What's crazy is it like, it is if you read it, it's literally that simple. Like, submit everything to God, commit your way to him, and love people in the process of doing that, and there is nothing you will do that will not profit. And let's obviously expand the word profit to, like, gain above and beyond the activity itself. It's what we're talking about there. But what's crazy is it's so simple that that's why we deviate.
Alex Judd:We get bored. We we do different things. But the other thing that I would highlight about what you just talked about from your personal experience is I think the number one thing that keeps leaders sidelined from the life that they could be living is indecision. Right? The the I don't know what I should do.
Alex Judd:I don't know what I'm called to do. I don't know what I want to do. Use whatever language you want, and therefore they do nothing. And what's so empowering about this verse is if you do it and you work hard at it and and you believe in it, if it's toil, it will gain a profit. And so in some ways, it's kind of saying it matters, but it doesn't really matter.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Right? Like and it's incorrect to get this perspective in our head, I think, that it's like, man, one of these ways is gonna be profitable, create gain for others, create abundance, create flourishing, and one of these ways is gonna be, you know, I think we picture, like, literal hell. And it's like, certainly, there are good and bad scenarios where that could be the case. But more often than not, it's like, if you can put your heart into it and you can work really hard at it, if you do that, it will it will generate profit.
Alex Judd:And that profit could be, hey. I did that for a year, and I learned after doing that for a year a bunch of lessons that caused me to get a clearer vision of what I could or should be doing. That's profit. Right? Or it could be, man, this is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing, and I couldn't have known that with certainty without getting a year into it.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:What's sad is a lot of us never choose, and therefore, we never get good at anything.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I feel like I've heard more than once from successful entrepreneurs, like, oh, everybody knows me for this business, you know, the one that I I made a $100,000,000 from, but they don't know about the 12 other businesses that I started before starting the one that was successful. And that idea that making the decision to pursue something and working at it, like, they would not have been successful in the business that really took off if they hadn't taken the steps to develop the skills and go through the experiences they did in the the 12 businesses prior. And I feel like I I hear that consistently over and over and over again.
Alex Judd:For sure. Yeah. I mean, the the business terms for it is deliberate strategy versus emergent strategy. And the best case study I've ever heard on this topic is Honda started bringing motorcycles to The United States to start trying to sell motorcycles here, and it was particularly on the West Coast. It's been a while since I've read this case study, but they brought motorcycles over here.
Alex Judd:And they thought to themselves, like, we need to bring, like, the equivalent of a a Harley over here because we're trying to sell to Americans. And it went horribly. Right? Because Americans, like, if they're buying a Harley, they're gonna buy a Harley. They're not gonna buy Harley culture is not gonna be like, oh, but Honda's a little bit cheaper, and I hear it's more reliable.
Alex Judd:It's like, no, dude. These people get that tattooed on their back. Like, they are not gonna buy a Honda. Right? And it was going very poorly, like, very poorly to the point where they were saying we're gonna we're gonna pull out of the West Coast Of The United States because these things just aren't selling.
Alex Judd:Well, they were literally in process of starting decisions around pulling out of the West Coast, and they had a couple other workers that they just sent with some little Honda motorbikes to, like, ride around town and stuff like that. And some like, there had become a lot of interest in the little motorbikes that they were riding around that were the exact opposite of a Harley to the point where they're like, a lot of people are asking where they can get these. Like, we're literally getting a lot of requests for this. What if we tried selling this? Boom.
Alex Judd:It went crazy. Right? It was not their deliberate strategy. Their deliberate strategy actually sucked, but they would have never gotten to their emergent strategy if they didn't do their deliberate strategy. And so I think that's actually a pretty good example of it was all toil.
Alex Judd:They they were putting their heart into all of it, and it eventually led to profit.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I just love there is profit in in all hard work.
Alex Judd:That's crazy. That
Ben Loy:is
Alex Judd:crazy.
Ben Loy:The word all is in there, like Yeah. Nothing is yeah. Again, like, nothing is wasted. Right?
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Is there anything else that you wanna say to that before we move on?
Alex Judd:Yeah. I mean, and this is advice or conviction that I could receive as well. The the second half of the verse is mere talk tends only to poverty. Mhmm. Right?
Alex Judd:We can ideate, and ideation conversations are really fun, and we can, you know, talk about what we wish we could do or talk about the things that could be really cool if we did it, or we could talk about, you know, what our business would do if we started a business. And that talk literally tends the trajectory of talking only goes towards poverty. Right? Means that you have no bread to put on the table is what the message says. What it say?
Alex Judd:It says the message version says hard work pays off. Mere talk puts no bread on the table. It's like you've never put bread on the table by just talking. Now Eugene Peterson probably wrote that when podcasts weren't a thing. Even the podcast though, we can all if we just record a podcast and don't get strategic and intentional, hard work of the head about how to distribute, how to market, how to reach specific customer or things like that, I've done podcasts before where all you do is talk and nothing else, and it doesn't go, it doesn't profit.
Ben Loy:Yeah. And I think in today's day and age, talk can often look like, I mean, and you already alluded to it, we live we just live in the age of information overload. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, you could sit down and and listen to every podcast out there about training for a race, training for a half or a marathon or something like that. And you can order all the gear and look at it.
Ben Loy:You can listen to every Huberman lab to optimize your sleep and your diet, but ultimately, like, if you never actually put in the consistent grind of running miles upon miles every week in preparation for it, you're never going to get there.
Alex Judd:Yeah. It actually I keep referencing this conversation, so I'm excited to have him on the podcast. But the conversation we had with your brother the other day, who's a business owner, is one of the things he said that I thought was really sharp for his business is he said, man, the minute we actually put something out to the marketplace, the feedback loop exponentially increases, which is so true. Right? We can chat about the things that we wanna release to the marketplace for literally years on end and not receive any real feedback.
Alex Judd:The minute you start getting feedback that leads to customer centric improvement is when you actually put something out there and do something. Yep. Right? Okay. We could talk more on this for a very long time.
Alex Judd:You go with the next one. Cool.
Ben Loy:So the next one I had was '19.
Alex Judd:Okay.
Ben Loy:And this is the one I was I, like, let out an oof while we were preparing Yeah. Before this because I was like, I've read Proverbs so many times and I feel like every time I read it, there's always one that I'm like, I like didn't don't I didn't remember this one being in here and it just hits me hard for some reason in this season.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I didn't know which one you were talking about when we were preparing but now I'm looking it up and I'm I'm pumped to talk about
Ben Loy:this. This will be great. Yeah. So Proverbs eighteen one, one who isolates himself pursues selfish desires. He rebels against all sound wisdom.
Ben Loy:And I just my note that I wrote down was just isolation equals rebellion, which I yeah, I just never thought to frame it that way, but it makes so much sense. And not only rebellion, but, like, you're rebelling against all sound wisdom. And Proverbs one says, like, the beginning of knowledge, beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. So it's like you are actively rebelling against submitting to God and His authority by isolating yourself as a leader. And I'm like, man, that hits hard.
Alex Judd:Okay. So here's what I'd like to do because I think sometimes we can use words like rebellion, right? You know, we're trying to overthrow God's will or things like that, and it's like that but when you're doing it though, that isn't practically what it feels like at all. So I love, you know, and I'll share one too, but do you have a practical example of where maybe you've fallen you've been unwise as it relates to this proverb? Mhmm.
Ben Loy:I think in previous seasons and really even just growing up, like, the way that I was wired and the environment I was in, I was really, in my mind, really good at internally processing a lot. Mhmm. So, like, I wasn't an oral processor. I was I I still am introverted. I think it just looks different, but, like, I was a pretty introverted kid, and so there was a lot that I just processed through on my own and in my own thinking and through just, like, rumination that I and I think I carried that disposition into my adulthood, and I I probably carried it farther than I needed to after becoming a Christian and learning what healthy community and accountability looks like, and then having that healthy community and accountability.
Ben Loy:And then I think, again, I think that disposition carried farther probably than it should have, like years farther. Because I would always, I mean, even in my decision to move to Texas to continue to pursue flight school, like, was a very turbulent time for me, my decision to get out of the Coast Guard. I don't even, I don't regret any of those decisions and like, I think we've talked about
Alex Judd:previously All things are profitable.
Ben Loy:All things are profitable. Yeah. Like nothing is wasted and and the Lord used the difficulties in those pursuits to form me in so many different ways and so I don't look back with regret at all, but I do look back sometimes and, like, the nature of where I was when I was living in Oregon and then making the decision to get out of the coast guard is I didn't have church community, I was isolated, I was in a small town. And so all of the people that could weigh into my life and that I had gotten to know throughout my life were from a distance. And while I think that that insight is really valuable, there's only so much that they can really weigh into when I'm the one painting the picture from a point of isolation of like what my life looks like and how I'm thinking through things.
Ben Loy:And so I I like, I look at that decision. I also look at, again, like my my time in Texas and again, another season where I was like a a little more isolated. I didn't have as many roots in Houston as I did in Arizona and other parts, and so I wasn't as well connected and life was busy. And so making decisions from a position of isolation versus just making decisions from a position of strength and being surrounded by wise counsel, I think led to probably some more heartache than there needed to be.
Alex Judd:Yeah, like the way that you took that because I think so often there's a lot of conversation today around the role of vulnerability in effective leadership and I think it's critically important. But a lot of times, the way we frame content around man being vulnerable as a leader is like, because that's gonna make you more trustworthy to your team. But it's like, that is a side benefit. But in reality, it's also there are seasons where you are vulnerable. And if anything, it's just humility, like having an accurate viewpoint of yourself to be able to be vulnerable with people to say like, I actually don't know what to do here.
Alex Judd:And I think a lot of times leaders isolate because they don't like looking like someone who doesn't know what to do. And so they cut themselves off from people so that the people can continue to have the image of them as someone who knows what to do. And meanwhile, they just, like, get in their little hole and, again, isolate. Right? That's exactly what they do.
Ben Loy:And this verse too, I mean, one who isolates himself pursues selfish desires. Yeah. And, I mean, that idea that you were just speaking into of vulnerability is extreme or lack of vulnerability is actually extremely prideful because normally I think it is image based. It's the what will they think of me or I want to look strong, I want to look like I'm acting from a position of strength when I don't feel strong right now. And so fighting against vulnerability and authenticity with the people around you is actually selfish.
Alex Judd:Yeah. What am I guarding here? Is in some ways what we should ask. I think about there was probably, you know, year two, year three of the business where I started to experience some stress around some certain decisions, and I like, there were some certain strategies that we were pursuing and going all in on that I I was questioning and I had a lot of questions about, but I I didn't know exactly who I could go to. The way I evaluated, I I like had a host of mentors that I knew I could talk to.
Alex Judd:I I mean, there's, you know, an abundance of really really smart business leaders. I And kind of
Ben Loy:thought about who I
Alex Judd:could call. And with all of them, I was like, well, they just wouldn't understand. And it was one of two things. They either wouldn't understand the context. Why?
Alex Judd:Because I hadn't been living in community with them to keep them updated on the context of everything leading up to this decision. Right? Which is why community over time, not just in crisis, is so valuable. But then the second thing that I think is really important, especially the day and age we live in, is I I would say they just wouldn't understand because I was like, they might, you know, have a little bit of a different theological bent than I do as it relates to this decision, or they might, you know, think about business way differently than I do, or or, you know, I could think of a number of reasons why they just wouldn't understand why I'm doing the things that I'm doing in this scenario. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And they'd probably advise me to take a different course or something like that. And, you know, now looking back with a little bit more wisdom, I'd be like, maybe there's a reason they don't understand. Right? Yeah. And and I think it's we should be very shrewd and discriminating with the advice we allow ourselves to receive.
Alex Judd:But the thing that, you know, I look back and I say, that was pretty prideful is, okay, they might have a different theology than you, and you might even disagree with their theology. Just because you get their advice doesn't mean you have to take it.
Ben Loy:Right.
Alex Judd:Right? You could just listen and just be like, okay. I respectfully disagree. I didn't even wanna hear it. And so what was really going on there is exactly exactly what the proverb says is, oh, you just want to do what you want to do.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Is what we're talking about here, you know? My
Ben Loy:thought is when I hear, oh, they they might differ slightly with me in theology or disposition. I'm like, good. Like, go talk to those people.
Alex Judd:Yeah. You know? That's so that's so good. Yeah. That's a great point.
Alex Judd:Where were you two or three years I knew you two or three years ago, but I wasn't talking to you. Right? I was isolating. Right? But, I mean, I I have a mentor that he actually says, like, whenever I'm facing a big decision, he's like, I wanna call the most, like, conservative, straight laced, like, just protect what you currently have person I know.
Alex Judd:And then he said, and then I also wanna swing to the other side and talk to the most like, just aggressive, bold visionary that he know that I know. And he said, not because I'm gonna necessarily wholesale follow either of them, but because there's probably nuggets of truth in both of them that I'll be able to incorporate into a wise decision that I can believe in. But I think and I think it should be a future podcast of some some sort is gray thinking. I I learned about this from a book called the contrarian's guide to leadership, that our friend, Seth, recommended to me. So did Jim Mullins.
Alex Judd:And the which don't you love that title? The Contrarian's Guide to the I was like, sign me up. That sounds pretty good. But he talks about, like, we so often try to frame things through black and white. Like, it's either the visionary way is the right approach or the conservative way is the right approach.
Alex Judd:And he's like, no. In reality, there's probably things both of those mentors or or, counselors are saying that is true, and that should be incorporated into a gray decision for how to move forward in some ways. But if you just wanna do what you wanna do, there's no reason to listen to either of them. Right.
Ben Loy:Okay. Let's dive, in the couple minutes that we have left. Let's dive back into you said you had some thoughts on the idea of rebellion and rebelling against all sound wisdom?
Alex Judd:Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess what I was saying there is when I was saying, well, they just wouldn't understand. Like, let's be very clear. I I did not think I was being unwise or an idiot in that scenario, and I certainly didn't think I was being rebellious in that scenario. I I wasn't shaking my fist at God being like, no way.
Alex Judd:I'm it was just like I was moving really fast. You know? I I didn't wanna have an hour and a half phone call to catch everyone up on everything I was doing, and I didn't really feel like the decisions that I was making, like, any of those individuals that I'm thinking about would basically fully agree with me. And so I was like, I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing, and we'll see how it works And, you know, it wasn't catastrophic. Right?
Alex Judd:You know, we're still here, and things are still going well. But I could have saved myself and others heartache if I had preemptively had some of those discussions. Because what's interesting is I ended up having those discussions. Wisdom always finds a way of working its way back around. Like, if you avoid it Yeah.
Alex Judd:Because wisdom is always rooted in reality, and reality always catches up to you. So I ended up having the conversations. It was just a little bit later, and therefore, little bit more money was spent and a little bit more heartache was invested. It's like, man, if I could have just done this earlier, probably could have saved a lot of time, energy, heartache.
Ben Loy:Do you think the lesson would have hit as harder, though?
Alex Judd:Oh, gosh. Come on, Ben. This is supposed to be a diagnosis of my issue. I mean, no. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Because the lessons were already readily available to me. And so now I think wisdom now comes in, okay, buddy, you're gonna make those mistakes again? We've now identified mistakes that you made. This goes back to our failure episode. Now the question I I feel like, you know, we focus on rate of recovery.
Alex Judd:I've owned those mistakes and moved forward from them. I've had actually particular conversations with those mentors about the way that I thought about them in that season, how it was incorrect, and how I now think about them. And I've taken active steps to, you know, have people that have context on decisions that I'm making, I'm not, like, doing it just in crisis. So, you know, and I've received grace for it. Right?
Alex Judd:Praise God for that. Now wisdom is, okay. Are we gonna do this again? Or when you face similar decisions, am I gonna use some version of the phrase they just wouldn't understand? Mhmm.
Alex Judd:I I heard someone recently say, and this is a guy who could say this too. It was, Brian Houston. You know who that is? He was the lead pastor at Hillsong. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? That unfortunately and he would say this. His tenure at Hillsong ended in disgrace. Mhmm. Right?
Alex Judd:He did he just recently released a two part podcast lesson on Humpty Pastor. Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall, and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty back together again. Right? Really great lesson.
Alex Judd:And, you know, I'm his perspective on that is you uniquely valuable. Right? Because it's probably one of the most exposed and, like, widely talked about falls, in our time. Right? Is just his fall in people's eyes and what they perceived him to be.
Alex Judd:One of the things that he said in that that was so good, he said, there's good mistakes, there's bad mistakes, and there's tragic mistakes. And good mistakes are ones that other people make that we learn from. Bad mistakes are ones that we have to make, but we learn from. Tragic mistakes are ones that we make, but we never learn from. And there you go.
Alex Judd:It's like yeah. That and that's what happens without an abundance of counselors. Like, we doom ourselves to tragic mistakes where we keep doing the same thing and nothing different ever happens.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. Man, well, we are out of time to die What
Alex Judd:a brilliant no day. Dive into.
Ben Loy:But I will say, like, I mean, is our second time doing this. This is, I think, quickly becoming one of my favorite versions of what we're doing here on the podcast. And in the spirit of not living in isolation, like, if you're listening to this podcast, this is something that you could and honestly, like, should be doing with the people around you in your daily life. Open up the word, a passage. I mean, pick the proverbs and just talk through them with people.
Ben Loy:I think I find it personally edifying. I think Alex would would agree.
Alex Judd:Oh, yeah. And, I mean, I learn something every time too. And and that, like, vulnerability, it's kind of vulnerable to walk into something and be like, I don't know. I don't really know what we're gonna talk about as it relates to auxin and resources. And Yep.
Alex Judd:But you learn something in the uncovering of things. And, I mean, we live in this time where we have Google and Tom Constable notes, and I don't just trust AI as your source for commentaries, but it's such a powerful time that we can learn so much and grow so much in community.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation, and I'm looking forward to more.
Alex Judd:Same. Thanks, Ben. Yep. Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.
Alex Judd:If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement.
Alex Judd:We wanna amplify what's valuable to you and obviously reduce or even remove the things that aren't. Also, you leaving a positive review is what helps us connect with, build trust with, and serve other leaders around the country. So thanks in advance for helping us out on that front. Are you a leader that wants to grow your business in a healthy way, serve people exceptionally well, and glorify God in the process? Go to pathforgrowth.com to get more information about our community of impact driven leaders and schedule a call with our team.
Alex Judd:Hey, thank you so much to the Path for Growth team, Kyle Cummings and the crew at PodCircle, and the remarkable leaders that are actively engaged in the path for growth community. Y'all are the people that make this podcast possible. Y'all know this. We're rooting for you. We're praying for you.
Alex Judd:We wanna see you win. Remember, my strength is not for me. Your strength is not for you. Our strength is for service. Let's go.
Alex Judd:Let's go. Let's go.
