How to Make a Leadership Mess
Okay. Let's start here. You know, all of us study leadership. We have practice owning or running a business, and now we all, in some form or fashion, coach leaders that own our own businesses. So we've witnessed, experienced, and observed leadership messes before.
Alex Judd:So high level, any leadership messes come to mind as something you've either experienced yourself, witnessed, or observed in others.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. I I own a business for the better part of of the last decade. I own a business with two different business partners. And I think one of the earliest messes we got into was around compensation. The the the company's growing.
Matt Aiken:There's a lot of fruitfulness. We're not all doing the same level of work, the same level of commitment as far as employee versus owner. And I was looking at the results, I was like, man, this would be amazing. Could you guys, I'd really like a raise. I think that I've merited this raise.
Matt Aiken:And that led to a situation where all of a sudden comp what do they say? Money makes people funny. Right? Things got funny, and and the result or the the outcome of that situation was probably not the wisest course of action around compensation. And that created a mess six months later when cash flow got tight, and now we're talking about, okay.
Matt Aiken:Hey, guys. What are we actually paying for here? And so we have money makes people funny. Compensation, get get them get into a mess real quick.
Alex Judd:So to that note, like, let's maybe collaborate together on when we say a mess, like, what what are the common denominators of, like, when people experience a leadership mess, this is what it symptomatically feels like?
Matt Aiken:Disunity. Things feel harder than they actually are or should be. We're making emotionally charged decisions, not necessarily operating in the best interest of the business. Stable, fruitful, loving relationships turn to jealousy, malice, anger. There there's disunity.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. And the business is not growing. There's not the fruitfulness. Things don't feel healthy. Things become more and more dependent on you, and all the self hyphenated sins start coming in.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Self what was that?
Matt Aiken:It's a self hyphenated sins, self righteousness, self self deception, self yeah. All the self hyphenated sense.
Alex Judd:They surged to the forefront.
Matt Aiken:That's right. That's right.
Alex Judd:Kyle, any any other common denominators that you notice as symptoms of a leadership mess?
Kyle Guemmer:Yeah. I think all the things that he mentioned were were on a path, We're no longer on that path. And so a mess can look a lot of different ways, all the things that he just mentioned. But, really, it's like, it's not just an obstacle, but it's we're on the way to accomplishing something, and now there's gotten there's something in the way of now continuing to pursue that vision, and we're either going backwards, we're totally distracted, or we're no longer getting to where we're trying to go.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Man, that's so good. You know, we kind of just reflecting in coaching conversations we've had our own experience, we kind of felt like, man, it would be good to tackle this topic because this is something that we see showing up and oftentimes it feels avoidable. And so we wrote down, you know, okay, how do leaders get themselves into a mess? And we kind of wrote down all of these kind of things that we see as like this is if you want to create a roadmap, if you want to create the recipe, like you're looking to get into a mess, this is what you should do.
Alex Judd:And it's interesting that almost every single thing we wrote down in some way is relationship Like, are talking the messes that we often get into our relational message, and that makes sense because if it's a leadership mess, like, can't have leadership without relationship. And I guess another thing that stands out to me is just drama. Mhmm. Like, I think drama and mess kinda go hand in hand. And the question that that I often see leaders asking when they find themselves in this situation is like, what are we doing?
Alex Judd:Like, we are spending so much time, money, and energy on the thing that isn't actually the thing. So so with that, any thoughts on y'all side on why it could be helpful and wise to approach this topic in this way? To, like, understanding what are the ingredients that go into making a leadership mess? Why is that valuable for leaders to consider?
Kyle Guemmer:There's a principle we talk about a lot. There's there's not wisdom in experience. There's wisdom in evaluated experience, and we just have, I think, the blessing and the pleasure of interacting with a lot of different business owners, dealing with a lot of different circumstances and situations. And and I think this is our best effort of saying, like, man, as we look back, what are all of the messes that we've seen people get into? How do those things happen?
Kyle Guemmer:What are the common denominators of those things? And if we can synthesize those things and simplify those things in a way that it's communicated today, Lord willing, it prevents many messes from the people who are listening, to this conversation. Yeah.
Matt Aiken:We have a lot of customers, not not all of them, but a lot that come in the midst of a mess. And the first ninety days of coaching is trying to understand the context, what got you into this mess? Because the worst thing that could happen is we solve the mess, and then there is a root issue that recreates the mess in the future. And so we have to understand that we have a proclivity at times to get ourselves into messes, and those are often patterns. And when there's a, you know, when there's a pattern, we we should stop and go, what is this pattern trying to teach me?
Matt Aiken:And so we gotta make sure first ninety days of coaching, okay, let's get out of the mess, but let's also understand what are the what are the ingredients that got us there and make sure those ingredients are gone.
Alex Judd:Okay. So let's jump into the ingredients then. If if we are baking a mess, here's what we're gonna put in first. Number one, the first thing you gotta make sure you do if you just wanna create a nightmare of a mess, prioritize short term harmony over long term peace? What stands out whenever y'all think about that action?
Matt Aiken:I mean, that's what was going on in in my situation. I I play the the finance role, the the the CFO role amongst my partners. And and so it's my responsibility to steward the resources that we have earned and and make sure that what we've earned gets good fruit and reward. And I was more interested in, one, getting selfish. Right?
Matt Aiken:Getting that that raise that I thought I'd earned, that I thought I deserved, and and and not having the hard conversations, not having the, okay. Hey. What is our long term compensation goal? Where are we going? What are we looking to get out of the the business both now and later as it relates to to value?
Matt Aiken:And instead of having those conversations, which at the time were I had a lot of fear around, a lot of trepidation as the minority stakeholder in the business and pushing those forward because we didn't wanna talk about it. It was clear that my partners didn't wanna talk about it. And so I like, okay. Well, what's a easy solution that that can get us out of this? I thought I was in a mess.
Matt Aiken:I wasn't in a mess.
Kyle Guemmer:Yeah. Is yeah. Made a mess.
Alex Judd:The the idea of, like, oh, this can't get any worse and, like and then you actually start using that to justify further bad action in some ways. Yeah. I heard a a just a brilliant and wise leadership teacher recently say he said, man, so often we know that the hard thing is the right thing, but too often we prioritize Thanksgiving. Is what he said. He's like, you know, November is always right around the corner, and we're we're gonna have the team Thanksgiving meal, and we want everyone to have a smile on their face.
Alex Judd:We don't want there to be drama in the in the room, and so it's like and there's always the next Thanksgiving. Right? If it's not Thanksgiving, it's Christmas. If it's not Christmas, it's New Year's. If it's not you know, it's just like there's always a reason not to do the thing that you should actually be doing if if you're looking for it, I would say.
Alex Judd:What what stands out to you, Kyle, on this point of, like, short term harmony versus long term peace?
Kyle Guemmer:Yeah. Craig Groeschel has this quote that every big problem in an organization was once a small problem the leader failed to address. And when you're prioritizing short term harmony and when we're talking about this, like, we're baking the mess here, often we don't want to have the courage to address the small things that feel insignificant now because we want there to be harmony. But then when we don't address that thing, that thing becomes disharmony, and now we have to address it after things have already taken place. And so especially when we talk about evaluated experience, it's like, man, what are the small problems in the organization right now that we know are gonna be big problems, but what does it look like for us to, like, actually have that conversation now and maybe put off a little bit of that short term harmony for that long term piece because we're addressing it before it becomes a big problem.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I I also think we get this kinda weird screwed up, maybe even theology of, like, we think that the Christian approach to leadership is harmony all the time. Like, we shouldn't be having conflict. We shouldn't be having discomfort. There shouldn't be times where you and I aren't seeing eye to eye.
Alex Judd:And I don't know. My my I would like to know y'all. My perspective is, like, that doesn't that is not biblical. It is what we need to remember.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. Acts 15. Right? The council of Jerusalem where, you know, Paul has finished his first missionary journey and he's he's proclaimed the gospel to all of these churches. And then there starts to be dissension.
Matt Aiken:There starts to be disharmony. And what could he have done? It was like, okay. That, you know, that has a place. Or he's like, no.
Matt Aiken:We've got to establish what is true, what is right, what is worthy. And so what do they do? They grab some leaders, they go down to Jerusalem, and they have an uncomfortable conversation. Right? They they get everyone in the room and they say, okay.
Matt Aiken:Hey, James. Hey, Peter. Hey, Paul. Hey, hey, Barnabas. Like, what what are you seeing?
Matt Aiken:What have we observed? What did what did Jesus teach us? And they set the standard. And it was uncomfortable because a lot of people didn't want to this new established thing that this change to be coming. And and instead of shying away from it, they they clarified it.
Matt Aiken:They had conversations. They pulled the strings together and said, okay. This is what creates long term harmony and peace for these Gentiles coming in.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I kinda think about, like it feels like the most wise, mature, and I would even say faithful leaders that I know, they just kind of have reached this place where they just know conflict is part of the job description.
Matt Aiken:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Like, and and if I'm ever going for prolonged periods without experiencing conflict, it probably doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It probably means that I'm avoiding it or there's something that I'm not seeing. Okay. Let let's move on to the second ingredient, and it's not it's not dissimilar. I actually think it's very connected.
Alex Judd:So number one, prioritize short term harmony over long term peace. Number two, avoid talking about the actual problem. What stands out to y'all whenever it comes to number two?
Kyle Guemmer:This is really the conversation around, fruit and roots. And at times, there can be a lot of fruit on the tree. And so there's a lot of, like, low hanging things that we can tackle and talk about that feel productive, but they're actually exhausting and unproductive and continue to create a mess because they're not dealing with the actual problem. And I see this a lot, with with my customers when I'm navigating situations where the the CEO is the main operator in a business and then hires the first operator to kinda step in for him, and there's a lot of granular details that you can get lost in, and and you can start talking about those things, giving feedback to those things, disagreeing about those things, but we totally miss, like, does this person actually get, want, and have the capacity to do that job? Have I created clarity around the expectations and the outcomes that I have for that job?
Kyle Guemmer:And when we're not talking about this, we can feel productive talking about the small things, and then we look up six months from now and we're back in the business because we've either had to demote that person's quit or we've had to fire the person when we really actually could have made that work with proper expectations or getting to the root of what are we actually talking about.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I, you know, if I I haven't really thought about it this way, but one of the biggest improvements and areas that we're even focused on, I think we have focused on it over the past two years in our coaching program, but also we're we're doubling down on that in this season is the use of diagnostics. And I feel like the diagnostics where we have people red, yellow, green particular areas of their business or particular areas of their team, it's almost like, okay. I get what your opinions are about what we should be focused on, but let's look at at this standard of what makes businesses actually work and run and thrive in a healthy way, and how do you line up on that? Because a lot of times, we end up solve solving or working on problems that are, like, actually not at all related to you getting to where you wanna go in some ways.
Matt Aiken:It's the worst when you get to the end of a coaching call and you're like, that was a really good conversation and we didn't actually talk about the problem. And and that's something that, you know, that's our job is to to step into, are we having a conversation around the actual problem? Yeah. Have we defined it? Is it clear not just to me as the coach, but to you as the leader?
Matt Aiken:Like, are are we talking about the most important things? What do leaders do? They make the most important thing the most important thing. One of the success statements we give to our CEOs is chronic problems, growth related opportunities are receiving proper CEO attention. Are we paying attention to ourselves where we're causing problems?
Matt Aiken:Are we paying attention to the problems that exist inside the organization and pulling them to the front of saying, yeah, there's a lot of good things we can talk about, but what's the thing that if we solve? What's the thing that if we were to make progress on makes everything else easier? Yeah.
Alex Judd:I'm personally really passionate too about the fact that, like, this point is avoid talking about the actual problem. I think, leaders put this this expectation on themselves that I need to figure this out on my own before I present it or share it with others. But, man, I mean, he he's one of the most effective leaders I know. JP Kruger. Right?
Alex Judd:He has shared with me this quote that, I think he heard it from Gary Keller first, but it's basically, if you've tried everything you know how and you're still getting the same bad results, you're missing And I I think that is so powerful because what that's saying is you need to go talk to people about that problem. Stop looking within yourself because you clearly don't have the answers. And in some ways, it's like an expression of humility to be like, I don't have the answers, and therefore, I need to start talking about this.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. One of the things that I I wanna add on to that is it's who are you talking to about the problem? You know, we we obviously have the context of coaching, but, you know, for me, I was a customer of Path for Growth before I was a coach. And prior to being a customer, I had to seek out who am I gonna talk to about this? Because there are we we need to get wisdom.
Matt Aiken:What does the Proverbs say? You you want wisdom? Get wisdom. Like, go find it. Go talk to someone.
Matt Aiken:And for me, that that's other men who are maybe where I'm at or a little bit ahead of me. Mhmm. And so how do you do that? You cultivate relationship out of outside of work. My wife, I love her.
Matt Aiken:Bless her heart. She thinks I am the hero of the story. Right? And so oftentimes, I'd be, like, talking to her about my problems with my business. And what is she gonna say?
Matt Aiken:Well, she could say, well, you should go get some wisdom from someone who has context, who has experience in this. Or she could say, you're right, Matt. You are you are not the problem here.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Matt Aiken:They're the problem. You know? And and what so often, some of our people who are closest to us, they only want we can talk about the problem with them. We might even get to the actual problem, but are they gonna be able to step in and and help you address the problem by addressing the root?
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. I heard I think it was he's a pastor in Dallas. What's his name?
Alex Judd:Old
Matt Aiken:Chuck Swindoll?
Alex Judd:You nailed it. All I had to say was old is the qualifier, and you nailed it.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. What a guy.
Alex Judd:Chuck Swindoll. What a what a guy. Yeah. Kyle, don't edit that out because I like that moment a lot. Yeah.
Alex Judd:So Chuck Swindoll, he was saying, yeah. You don't need to be surrounding yourself with yes men. It is so dangerous, so bad, so unhealthy to surround yourself with yes men. And then he said, just for the record too, don't surround yourself with no men either. And and that's really helpful too because it's like what we're really trying to guard against is people who have a default programming that no matter what you do, they're going to have a bias one way or the other.
Alex Judd:Like, let's talk to people that have their eyes wide open and might not even have yes or no, but might have good questions to help us arrive at a yes or no.
Kyle Guemmer:There's two things that stick out to me now that we've kind of hashed these two out is if you are a leader who thinks you have to have everything together, you may prioritize harmony or you may prioritize, man, I gotta figure this out before I actually solve it. And these two things could be avoided if we just start talking about things when it's spinach in your teeth Mhmm. Or when when a when a problem becomes like, man, why is this happening? And not saying I have to solve that, but being really curious and even curious with your team, it it can avoid so many of those problems by just having the humility to say, there's a little spinach in in the teeth of either me or you, and, like, I'd like to talk about that now because it doesn't feel like a big deal now. Or, man, this is a pattern, And where is the principle?
Kyle Guemmer:Where is the lesson? How could we avoid this in the future? And I think just operating from a from a spirit of humility and realizing, like, in those moments, we do build so much trust with our team, and we do avoid so many things, but let's not try to act like we have it all together.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And and that's so good because I think sometimes I can say this as a business owner. Sometimes I minimize stressors because I'm like, dude, that is not a big deal. Like, you need to calm down, and you need to, like, take a deep breath and get over it. And there, like, there's elements of that that are very, very true.
Alex Judd:But but if it's, like, this reoccurring stressor that's, like like, building this, like, either resentment or bitterness or or confusion Yeah. It's like, stop minimizing it and just say something. I I had a leader once that she told me she was just encouraging me to bring up the things that were on my mind. She's like, Alex, we can talk about anything. And she said, it doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with you, but we can talk about anything.
Alex Judd:And that was so, so helpful for her to open the door of, like, let's just talk about it, and there's no cost to just talking about it. Okay. Let's go to number three. Tolerate actions that contradict stated values and desires. First question is, let's let's take this out of the realm of theoretical and say practically, like, what is what is a scenario of what this actually looks like when a leader does this?
Matt Aiken:Well, I think there's two different buckets of this. Like, there's it's clear to the person, but they're acting in rebellion, or it's unclear to the person and they're acting in ignorance. Do you wanna take one of those two?
Alex Judd:Go ahead.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. You know, values and desires. So what are we talking about? We we talk a lot about what does winning look like. Answering the question, does the job of a leader to answer what does winning look like?
Matt Aiken:And that might be a role or it might be culture. Right? Our our mission and stated values. If those things are unclear to our employees or unclear to the leaders on our team, like, what's gonna happen? They're gonna do their best to interpret it.
Matt Aiken:And then what do we get into a situation where it's they're doing their best to interpret it and they might interpret that wrong. Might interpret that wrong. And what happens when they interpret it wrong? I get angry. I wanna flip a table or or I wanna call him in and and and, you know, put him before the horns.
Matt Aiken:Like, that's that's it's so frustrating to me that they are not acting acting in alignment what I know in my heart to be what winning looks like. And, man, that is a dangerous response. Instead of going, hey, is it clear to them? Have I have I really nailed down what this value means? Mhmm.
Matt Aiken:Is this an opportunity for teaching and coaching? And and that I I see that. Number one, there's there's it's unclear. It's not been defined properly. Maybe we don't have the right systems or processes to make sure we're coming back in alignment.
Matt Aiken:But then two, how do we use that as a coaching moment where their ignorance now becomes clarity? And and that if we don't get ahead of that, if we don't devote time to that, what happens? All of a sudden, everyone's gonna be defining what values mean to themselves, and it's gonna cause tension among the team. It's gonna cause extra work for you, and you're not gonna be able to actually be moving towards impact. But then there's the other one of, hey.
Matt Aiken:They what do you do when someone's in rebellion to it? Do can you think of an example?
Kyle Guemmer:I can think of a lot of examples, unfortunately. And and I would say this is really, for me, like, kinda spoke on this from the ignorance and, like, the organizational level, and and I really think about this a lot from, like, from the leadership level and and looking in the mirror. And there's, especially in Christian communities, there's this Christianese, and we can talk the language, we can say the right things, but if our actions are not aligning with the things that we're saying we want or the things that we're saying we value, that is a recipe for a mess. A mess in your personal life and a mess in your financial life, a mess in your leadership and in your business. And it's really like, what are the things that I'm saying I want, and what are the things that I'm saying I value?
Kyle Guemmer:And then let me audit my actions and do those things line up? And if they do, we are probably operating in courage. We're probably operating in humility. If they don't and we refuse to address that, we're either operating in rebellion or a 100% just self deception.
Matt Aiken:Mhmm.
Kyle Guemmer:And I just think looking at my own life and the mistakes that I've made and then the business owners that were, like, navigating through these and me really having a special relationship with them to maybe see those things, it's so important that we address self deception when it's like, these are the things I'm saying I'm wanting. Well, what are the things we're doing, and how much are those things crossing over? And if they're not, we gotta deal with that.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. You know, in some ways, the minute you state a value or you state a desire or a preference or a goal, it's like you are saying you are now welcome to hold me accountable to this. And I think a lot of people like the, idea of values more than they like the practice of values because the practice of values always and like I'm using always very, very particular here. It always costs you something. And with the minute you actually state a value, you are simultaneously saying, this is what we are for.
Alex Judd:This is who we are for. And that means we are not for everyone, which feels great until you coincide with someone that you're not for and you have to be able to say, like, okay, we're not for that person or or that that that person doesn't belong in this team even though they can get all the results that we want them to get. And that's where it's like your leadership integrity is on trial, and everyone is watching to say, like, okay. When they say they have standards, do they actually have standards? Or are they creating a culture of compromise?
Alex Judd:Because your compromises always cascade is one thing that I think we should all remember. You you had the chuckle of recognition to something I said there. Is there anything you'd add on there?
Kyle Guemmer:I was looking at our our paper here, and and it just says charades. And, yeah, it's just like, man, let's make sure we're not playing games in our personal life, in the way that we lead and serve people, and in our business because, really, what are we about? If we are about, like, stepping into who God created us to be so that others benefit and God is glorified, the impact aspect of that, none of that is happening in our personal life with stepping into who God created us to be and the impact on the result if we're just playing charades. And and it's why we have a a core value of alignment here, and it's why it's so important that we talk about this regularly because we should not be teaching or talking on these mics or talking about these things if we're not actually living them ourselves or have practiced them in our business environment. And and so this one is like, I think because of that value, like a, man, it's a convicting and it's like a heavy one, but it's when we're talking about the recipe for creating messes, it's like, man, this is so important that we have a rhythm and relationships in our lives where we're auditing values and desires compared to our actions.
Matt Aiken:Mhmm. A lot of this conversation has been about tolerating others' actions too. I think something I see in coaching a lot too is leaders tolerate their own behavior sometimes Mhmm. To their detriment. We talk about getting into a mess.
Alex Judd:Good, Matt.
Matt Aiken:You you talk about getting into a mess? Tolerate your own misalignment with core values.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Matt Aiken:One normally, four, five months into coaching, you know, we've been red, yellow, green in core values on a monthly basis with our with our CEOs we work with. And there kinda comes to a point where it's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Aiken:I'm green on all these things today. It happens quite a bit. And I go, okay. Hey. Just real quick.
Matt Aiken:Tell me how you've embodied one of these core values. Why why is this so clear that it's green for you? And there's always a moment if we if we are in coaching long enough where a leader will go, man, I'm yellow or red on this core value. You talk about transformative leadership. When you start to transform yourself, when you spot start to say, this is nonnegotiable.
Matt Aiken:If I'm gonna fire someone else for not being in alignment with the core value, what the heck am I gonna do when I'm not acting regularly, consistently in alignment with my core value? It goes back to the avoid talking about actual problems. You gotta be able to talk about it, and you gotta be able to say, I think I'm tolerating this thing inside of me. Can you can you come in? Can you help me self evaluate?
Matt Aiken:Or is there a diagnostic that you individually are going through? I know you do this. You you are one of the the best leader leaders I know who has reflection as a part of your rhythms. How do you know or what what is the practice that you I know this is not solving the problem, but, like, what's the practice if you didn't follow?
Alex Judd:I mean, we I read Yellow Green myself on our core values, and one that can be very, helpful for me to regularly come back to is freedom and responsibility. Right? Because I'm the owner of the business. Right? There there are certainly not someone micromanaging my time, and there's also not someone looking at how the level of intensity that I'm bringing to my work every single day.
Alex Judd:Right? And that's actually we're a virtual company and we believe a lot in ownership mentality for everyone. So I would say that's true for all of us. It might even be more true for me, right? That no one no one is actively saying, are you giving it your all today?
Alex Judd:And like, are you giving it everything you've got or are you winging it today? And so me having a regular rhythm in addition to mentors and people that have access to my life and visibility into who I am and things like that, but a rhythm of just the self evaluation of freedom and responsibility. I want uncommon freedom, therefore, I've gotta be willing to take uncommon responsibility. Does my work reflect the value of uncommon responsibility? It is a, relentless standard, but, man, what's so good is green, green, green, green, green, yellow, and then it's like green.
Alex Judd:Right? Because it the minute you start to see yourself drifting, then you can have a great, you know, moment of confession, prayer. And now instead of spending weeks on end, spending more time than you would like to on social media or doing things that are a waste of time and not an investment of time, it's like, okay. I'm just gonna course correct, and we're gonna move in a in a better direction. Direction.
Alex Judd:So yeah. Like but I think your point of not assuming that you're above contradicting values yourself is really, really critical. Okay. Let's go to a fourth ingredient now if you wanna create a a royal mess. Double down on an idea that has already been proven as bad.
Alex Judd:Explain to me, like, how or when have you seen this play out?
Matt Aiken:Oh, man. I'm I'm the CFO, so I'm gonna give the CFO answer. Committing to a pricing model that's not giving you the profitability that you need. It's like, oh, hey. You know, we're getting the we're getting the close rate that we need, So the offer must be strong.
Matt Aiken:Our our pricing model must be strong. But now you find yourself three, four, five months into a situation where your p and l is saying, you're probably not profiting as much as you would need to from this. And you go, no. No. We can we can cut costs or we can we just need to solve this through sales.
Matt Aiken:We're gonna increase our increase our our volume. We're we're gonna use all of our excess capacity for this. And you find yourself going like, oh gosh. I've put myself into a into a financial situation where it's gonna be a lot to both unravel and then replace, you know, old customers or old old contracts with new profitable fruitful contracts.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, I feel like this one is easier to to fall for once you're successful in some ways. I feel like the in startup phase, the marketplace will make it so clear that your idea is bad, and then you either adjust or die. Right?
Alex Judd:Like you don't have an option, but, people, once they're successful, their original business model that was successful can lure them to thinking every idea is good and then they end up funding their bad idea with the success of the good idea. And that thing hasn't been profitable for years, and they've they haven't established a timeline for profitability. There's no roadmap for profitability. All the things that they did with their original model, they're not applying that to this, and they've just got like this trust fund baby of a business that they're trying to prop up because it's they've got emotions wrapped into it. And then I think what causes us to double down is, well, I've put so much of my reputation, I've put so much money, I've put so much time, it's like sunk cost Yep.
Alex Judd:Into this thing. And so the answer must be to to work harder and faster on the thing that has already proven to not work. It it is wild to me how many, like, legit, really smart people I've seen do that exact thing.
Kyle Guemmer:Yeah. There's, that's that's really the idea of, like, what got you here won't get you there, and what is our rhythm of evaluating that. I remember, especially with with this point specifically, working with a customer who had three really three lines of business, and one of those lines of business was a call center. Well, a call center involves people. A call center involves a ton of overhead.
Kyle Guemmer:We need space. We need technology. And we eventually came to a point where we're it's like, man, all of our calls are about this one specific thing. It has the most amount of expenses. It's the least profitable of all the three business units.
Kyle Guemmer:And coming to a point where it's like, we're consistently talking about the same thing over and over again. Should we actually have a call center? And understandably, the knee jerk reaction of of the business owner was like, what is that? Like, what are you even asking me? Because there's there's
Alex Judd:so I think it's a like, when you get to that where they're like, how dare you even ask that question? I feel like that's, not all the time, oftentimes confirmation that it's the exact right question.
Kyle Guemmer:Yeah. So much sunk cost bias if I have so much reputation. There's so many people. We've we've spent so much money on technology and training and all of these things, and it's like, let's come to a moment today. If you were starting the business today, would you continue to do that thing?
Kyle Guemmer:That's so And, Yeah. Don't double down on it and and really reflect on where I'm at. And and that's so easy to do. Some sunk cost bias is a thing for a reason. There's so many things that we wrap ourselves up into, resources that we just wanna continue to double down on insanity, like expecting different results.
Alex Judd:That's right. Well, on that encouraging note, Kyle, if we wanna create a mass, prioritize short term harmony over long term peace, avoid talking about the actual problem, tolerate actions that contradict stated values and desires, double down on an idea that has been proven to be bad. Y'all, thanks so much.
Kyle Guemmer:What a recipe.
Alex Judd:Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor?
Alex Judd:Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement. We wanna amplify what's valuable to you and obviously reduce or even remove the things that aren't. Also, you leaving a positive review is what helps us connect with, build trust with, and serve other leaders around the country. So thanks in advance for helping us out on that front.
Alex Judd:Are you a leader that wants to grow your business in a healthy way, serve people exceptionally well, and glorify God in the process? Go to pathforgrowth.com to get more information about our community of impact driven leaders and schedule a call with our team. Hey. Thank you so much to the Path for Growth team, Kyle Cummings and the crew at Pod circle, and the remarkable leaders that are actively engaged in the Path for Growth community. Y'all are the people that make this podcast possible.
Alex Judd:Y'all know this. We're rooting for you. We're praying for you. We wanna see you win. Remember, my strength is not for me.
Alex Judd:Strength is not for you. Our strength is for service. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.
