Failure is Fuel: Developing Strong Leaders with Denver Whetten
We've already heard a little bit about your story, with Alex, and I'd love to just hear from you around the topic of developing people. I think, one of the things I've realized just in your store and the way that you talk about it and some of the the bigger decisions that you've made, within your business, you're very, very people first. And so, that just seems to be a a core value, something, something intrinsic, just designed in the way that you you like to lead. And so I'd love to hear from you. Like, what does it what does it mean to be people first and and to develop people?
Denver Whetten:It goes back to our mission where our our mission is to grow and develop our people. The the whole reason why Degen Construction exists is so that we can take care of each other. And one of the things that is that that we all want is maybe not necessarily we know that we wanna grow, but we wanna do more, we want more responsibility, we want more money. And in order to do that, we need to be able to increase our capacity, increase our skills. And that's what a lot of what I think development is, is is helping us be more effective as leaders at work and at and at home both.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Where does that come from for you? Is there like, were there other people who've exemplified that to you? Were there moments in your career or your business where there was there was a shift that happened that, just made you realize how important that was?
Denver Whetten:I think it goes back to me growing up. I I grew up in a big family organization down in Mexico where we had cattle ranches, we we had, apple and peach orchards. My grandfather, my paternal grandfather was was a had a big impact on me. And and one of the things that I was able to observe was he took care of a lot of people. He was able to help people learn how to do things.
Denver Whetten:He he, was able to, help people create good lives, changed generations by believing in them, by by helping them be able to get their kids into good schools. I was, the oldest grandson that lived, down next to him, and he just had a he he just had a profound impact on my life as far as what leadership looks like and what, you know, taking care of people looks like.
Ben Loy:What do you think gave him the capacity to do that?
Denver Whetten:He just cared about people. He cared about people, you know. I think I think it comes from the gospel. It comes from love, service.
Ben Loy:If you were to say like one thing that you wish everyone knew around the topic of developing people and and being people first, what would it be?
Denver Whetten:It takes a long time for us to change and it requires consistency. Consistency and patience.
Ben Loy:And
Denver Whetten:and it's it's it's more about us being consistent and not giving up and and continuing to strive even though sometimes it looks like we're not making big progress,
Ben Loy:you
Denver Whetten:know, day over day or week after week. But if we can be consistent with it and be patient with it knowing that we it's gonna take a lot of time, we will see the results and and build momentum slowly.
Ben Loy:How have you changed over the years from when you first started Degen or or even before, you know, some of the decisions that led to to starting the company in the first place? And then now nineteen years later, how has your journey been as as change as an individual individual, change as a leader? What are some of the the big areas that you say you've changed?
Denver Whetten:Yeah, so the person that's changed the most is me. Realizing that I'm not the smartest person in the room, Whatever problem I have, I've got to take ownership of it if I want it to if I wanna provide a solution for that. It's learning to trust and, believe in other people.
Ben Loy:Can you tell me about a time where you saw someone really step into leadership or or who they could become or their potential, like, as you've been leading at digging?
Denver Whetten:I think that's my motivation, right, is is you see that and and and I get to see it a lot. Yeah. You know, as as we've been really focusing on leadership development, really heavily for the past five years. One example is is, we've got a superintendent right now who's running our biggest job. He started with us right out of high school, five and a half years ago and, started as a laborer and was willing to move and fill in wherever we needed him.
Denver Whetten:He was that guy who raised his hand and said, Hey, you know, put me in, I'll do it. I'll work the shift. I'll I'll I'll do that work. Whether it was fun or not, did his part and and through all of that, we we invested in him. We we we sent him into the office to learn how to read plans.
Denver Whetten:He became a lead man on a crew, responsible, motivating other people, even though he was, you know, half the age of a lot of the people on his crew, then became a foreman, was a good foreman, became an assistant superintendent. And they were on a big job when we had an issue with the main superintendent on that job, and that main superintendent ended up quitting. The stress was too much, couldn't handle it. And and this assistant superintendent, Ricardo is his name, he stepped up and stepped into that role. And and for a while, lots of people questioned and said, man, he's too he's too young, he's too green, but he'd already put in a lot of time.
Denver Whetten:He'd built a pretty strong foundation. He'd he'd participated in our leadership development program, and he stepped in and and and did a great job on that really difficult job. And he's continued to grow. He's continued to grow. And and right now, he's on the the biggest job we have Yeah.
Denver Whetten:For the company and continuing to do well. And and it's people like him who at the end of the day, you're like, man, it's worth it. It's worth the investment. It's it's worth it's just so fun to be able to see someone. And even after, you know, being with us for four years, which would be a typical going to college, you know, he's making way more money than anybody coming out of college would make.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. That makes me think of the I don't remember who says it, but it's the quote that luck is when preparation and opportunity meet. That's that's what it makes me think of. So you I you you talked about kinda his his attitude towards just taking on any job, you know, willing to learn. Is that something that you look for when you look at individuals who you identify as like, oh, this person has has a bigger capacity to lead if they're just developed properly?
Denver Whetten:Right. Yeah. We we believe in in the ideal team player. Mhmm. Right?
Denver Whetten:We're looking for humble, hungry, and smart. Mhmm. And and when we see that in somebody that that they're humble, that they're willing to listen, they're they're willing to take feedback, they're they're seeking feedback. Yeah. They're seeking critical feedback.
Denver Whetten:They're they're they're willing to put their team first. It's not all about them. And then we see that they're super hungry. They're they're the first ones to show up. They're the last ones to leave.
Denver Whetten:They're the first ones to raise their hand and say, hey, put me in. Let me do it. I'll take that hard job. And then they're smart. They're able to get along with other people.
Denver Whetten:They're they're able to communicate well. They're able to perceive what other people are thinking. They're they're able to, deescalate, really tense situations. Mhmm. You know, all those things are skills, but those are things that that, like, a guy like Ricardo came in humble and hungry and, has has been able to also become a very smart, people smart leader
Ben Loy:for us. What do you do in the situation where, you know, you hire someone and maybe maybe they don't have all those qualities or maybe they have two of those qualities and they're they're missing one of them? How do you identify the issue and then is that something you still put energy into trying to develop them and and grow them in those areas or is it more of a like coach coach them up or coach them out situation?
Denver Whetten:Right. Yeah. I don't think any of us are perfect.
Ben Loy:Sure.
Denver Whetten:Right? So so we're we're all we're all, you know, not all green on all three of those areas. And and and so I think the first thing is to become aware of, you know, where am I lacking? And I think that comes from coaching, comes from, assessments, that comes from having a leader that cares, that comes from having one on ones with your leader. And then if that individual is receptive and that individual cares and wants to grow, then they're gonna flourish.
Denver Whetten:And then there's times when, you know, people don't want it and they just don't wanna change, they don't want to strive or work on becoming a better leader. And yeah, eventually, you know, they find a better opportunity different company.
Ben Loy:Yeah, what is your philosophy on failure and how do you navigate that?
Denver Whetten:We have failed a lot. And in general, I feel like failure is a good thing. The biggest inflection points in Degen construction have been when we've had failures.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Denver Whetten:Those have fueled us wanting to get better. And had those failures not happened, we we probably wouldn't have.
Ben Loy:Yeah. What what would you say are some maybe key moments where you've had some big failures and you've had to learn from them?
Denver Whetten:Losing money on jobs. Sure. Having incidences on jobs where where our safety program wasn't as high as it needed to have been, where we've learned a lot. I I think a failure for me personally, you know, more recently, and the and the ones that hurt and the ones that where I feel like I feel like I wish I could take them back and and and not, you know, had those failures is is when it comes to people. You know?
Denver Whetten:I want our people to succeed, and a lot of the people who haven't succeeded with us was because I let them down. And sixteen months ago, we decided to bring on a couple of people to help us with our people development. I had decided that they were gonna report directly to me. You know, that's kind of under my scope, our leadership development. Mhmm.
Denver Whetten:And so they were gonna report to me. What I didn't realize was that I didn't set expectations correctly, and I didn't lead them correctly day to day, giving them feedback and helping them out, they both ended up failing at the end. And they were both really good individuals and they were the I feel like they were the right person for the seat, but because of the way that we restructured, because I'm the owner of the company and I'm not real consistent with my daily schedule and I didn't do a good job with my one on ones with them setting expectations. And and at the end of the day, they ended up not providing the value that we thought they should. And and and they ended up failing.
Denver Whetten:And those those are the failures that that I feel worse about, and I wish I wish I could go back and and and change things.
Ben Loy:One of the things I think is really unique to your story and the way that you lead is and Alex mentioned this in in the conversation you had with him, but a lot of people go, you know, maybe the people that got me here aren't the people that are that I'm I'm supposed to carry this all the way through with. And, it sounds like you got some encouragement at one point to to let let those people go, and you really double down on like, no, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna keep these guys in my corner and I'm gonna continue to just develop them. What does that look like practically in your business and what are some of the things that that you implemented to to start that process?
Denver Whetten:Gaining the realization, first off, that it's it's not the people that got us here are not gonna get us there. It's what what we did to get us here isn't gonna get us there. Mhmm. And so getting that realization that we can't just repeat what we did last year or we did five years ago, we have to change, we have to evolve, we have to innovate and adapt, we have to get better as leaders. And in order to do that, we've invested a lot of time, lot of effort in leadership development.
Denver Whetten:To me, in in my mind, the the the organization that develops the best leaders is the one that's gonna win in the end. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Why is that?
Denver Whetten:Because at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to is leadership. Mhmm. You know? Able to solve problems, able to build a team, able to gain alignment, able able to work well as a team, able able to communicate clearly, able to prioritize correctly, decentralize and delegate. All of those skills are are what it takes in order to be able to be successful.
Ben Loy:How has that changed, you know, starting with, I think, around 10 people and then now being a company of 200 and, I think, 40? Cause obviously, you're not you're not mentoring and developing 240 people individually. So how how has your approach changed and and how that's done and executed in the company?
Denver Whetten:I think it's realizing that structure is good. Realizing that each of us has a role that we have to perform. The hardest part is for me to realize that is is that there are certain things that only I can do, and and that's what I gotta focus on doing. I started out the business with 10 people as as the main operations manager, and that was what I loved doing. Like, that was super fun.
Denver Whetten:But then realizing that we get to a point that that isn't what's most important for for us to be able to continue to grow. That isn't what's important for us to continue to to to have a have a good culture and and and develop a good team. And then me being willing to, you know, get out of my shell. I'm super introverted. I don't like standing in front of crowds.
Denver Whetten:I get super nervous. That was one of the things that actually pushed me to go back to school was that's gonna force me to have to stand up in front of people and give presentations. It's gonna force me to have to be able to communicate more clearly, stand in front of a crowd and be a leader.
Ben Loy:And
Denver Whetten:so I think an important part of all of this is finding good people to mentor and coach you, tell you the truth and help you understand what it is exactly that, you know, in my case, what I need to do to be able to be the most effective leader possible.
Ben Loy:Because in many ways you're leading by example, Right? So you're, you know, you have the humility, you're you're hungry, and and you're you're learning in a way that, hopefully sets an example for the people below you. What what do you look for when you when you look for a mentor or someone to to speak into your role?
Denver Whetten:I look for someone who our values align. I look for someone who's who's genuine, who who who actually wants the best for us, who also cares about people Mhmm. Who cares about development, who believes in the same leadership model that that that we believe in.
Ben Loy:I think one of the unique things about and you could correct me if I'm wrong. One of the unique things about, I think, the dirt world and just this, I guess, the people that you interact with, some of the people that you hire is sometimes the culture can be maybe a little bit resistant to the the concept of, like, developing people. So how have you gotten people on board with that as you've built the company?
Denver Whetten:It requires a constant effort to communicate the vision, to communicate the need, and then for me to to to be the example of that. You know? For me to be vulnerable, for me to be humble, for for my transformation with with in the eyes of our team to to be public visible.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Denver Whetten:Right?
Ben Loy:What does that look like practically?
Denver Whetten:Well, for us, we're we're we do, weekly leadership trainings that that that I lead. Mhmm. And in those trainings, it it comes down to, you know, us us, you know, being real and and and, and me being humble enough to share, myself with what I'm going through, what I'm trying to do, who I am, the struggles I have
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Denver Whetten:And creating relationships with the key leaders of the company to to also follow in those steps Mhmm. And and and and see that vision and and and them continue to cast that vision and cascade the vision down to the people they're leading.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. Was there ever a time when you weren't doing that or you were like, the things that you were doing and how you were learning and growing was less visible to your team?
Denver Whetten:Yeah. For the majority of the for the majority of the time, we've owned the company. Okay.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Because you said you really you really dove into this
Denver Whetten:about Yeah. Five years
Ben Loy:What what caused that shift?
Denver Whetten:A big inflection point was when it wasn't fun anymore because we had a lot of contention, and I don't like contention. I I I hate contention. So we weren't getting along. We didn't have the alignment. We had people that I that I cared about a lot leaving the company, and I felt like I'd failed them.
Denver Whetten:Mhmm. And so and so one inflection point was that. Another one happened during COVID, I got COVID really bad. I was in bed for three weeks, lost 30 pounds, didn't actually know if I was gonna make it.
Alex Judd:Wow.
Denver Whetten:And laying in my bed for three weeks, first time in my life I'd ever like lost a day at work because I was sick. I had a lot of time to reflect and think back and be like, man, what have I done? You know, I've created I've created a successful company. It's it's provided a lot of comforts for our family, but do I like who I've become? If my time was up, would I would I be happy with that?
Denver Whetten:And the answer was no. That I needed to change. I needed to I needed to get more balanced. I needed to prioritize my faith and my family more than I had been. I needed to, prepare the company for a time when I'm not gonna be around, they're empowered.
Denver Whetten:Coming out of that is really did fuel this leadership development initiative that I have of creating more leaders and helping prepare people to to be able to lead.
Ben Loy:Yeah. It takes a lot of courage to ask those questions. If you could identify, like, one area where Dirt World specific companies could grow here, what would it be?
Denver Whetten:I think that this this future generation coming up is very high potential. I think I think they're gonna be the key to our success in the dirt world. And so having a program in place to be able to help them grow, help them see the direction, help them see the path, fuel their ambition in the right direction, I feel like that's gonna be the key to success. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:So you mentioned a program, and, I mean, Alex and I had the privilege of, like, being able to actually go see some of your the leadership training and stuff that you do for your team. How did that program start to develop for you, and what has it looked like to continue to refine that as you've gone along over the last few years?
Denver Whetten:Yeah. So every year it changes. It's been it's been an iterative it's been an iterative program as we go through a year long program from, August 1 through May, for our leadership training. We have about 19 or 20 different subjects that we're training on. And and at the beginning, it was just, our main operations leaders and and I kinda opening the door to to, well, what are these leadership principles?
Denver Whetten:And then it evolved to bringing some of our field supervisors and and and training them. And and it's just slowly evolved to to try to become more and more effective every year. But we initially started with with, really, really heavily on the extreme ownership, leadership program Yeah. Where where we were using, the the extreme ownership book, dichotomy leadership book, a lot of a lot of Echelon Fronts material, and it was it was effective. It was effective.
Denver Whetten:But a lot of that, for some of our people, it didn't resonate. They don't like the military terminology, they don't like the military examples. And so then the next year we evolved and we said, we're gonna make this program our own. And we started writing our own content and creating our own videos that we share to be able to, have that training in house via video and workbooks and and and material. And now currently, our our our program right now, we've got it to where I I train table group leaders, and then those table group leaders, go into our main, breakout, meeting with all of our employees, and and each one of those table group leaders leads a table of five to six individuals, and and they train them Mhmm.
Denver Whetten:On on on these principles. And and we use real life examples of things that are happening right now
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Denver Whetten:As as as they talk about them and try to apply them and then try to get everybody to commit to one small change, you know, every week. What's one small change they can make? And that's our that's our our iteration right now, and and and who knows what it'll be next next year. But but like I said with my conversation with Alex, I think the most important thing is the consistency.
Ben Loy:How have you seen, like, the your team change as as this program has developed? Because obviously, you're learning and changing as it goes, but then also, you know, I mean, the the the whole goal is to develop and change them. And so I'm just curious, yeah, from the first year to now, is this year three or four?
Denver Whetten:We're year the yes. We're in year four.
Ben Loy:Okay.
Denver Whetten:We're finishing up year four right now.
Ben Loy:What are the biggest differences you've seen in just, your yeah. Yeah. Your team as a whole or maybe maybe some individuals?
Denver Whetten:Yeah. So so those original tyrant leaders that said that that I was told would never change and that I needed to fire them, they're actually the ones leading the company.
Ben Loy:It's incredible.
Denver Whetten:They're actually the ones embracing these principles, using the terminology, sharing their knowledge, delegating correctly, setting roles and responsibilities, standardizing, running our safety program, doing all of those things to bring up more leaders, those and for me, like that's winning. That's winning.
Ben Loy:Yeah. That's so cool. How did you get them on board or what does that look like?
Denver Whetten:It was a long process. It was a long, long process, you know, and it's just one small thing sinks in at a time, you know, and comes through specific feedback, it comes from, you know, the consistency of getting together and having the trainings, it comes from them having experiences where they actually test out a principle and try it out. And then they're like, oh, this stuff does work. And that builds momentum and then they start training and they start teaching their guys. It's just a slow process of trying to build momentum, of trying to create that growing and developing culture that I know we can become.
Denver Whetten:Mhmm. It just takes time.
Ben Loy:If if you could talk to yourself five years ago from, like, what you know now and what you've seen on your team, what is something that you'd tell tell yourself?
Denver Whetten:One of the things that I'm doing with with Path for Growth right now is I have Matt Aiken as a coach. Mhmm. And this is fairly recent, you know, but but the impact he's had on me already has been tremendous.
Ben Loy:That's incredible.
Denver Whetten:And and one of the things five years ago was, yeah, I I need to take extreme ownership and I need to change, but there's insecurities that I have that, we don't wanna deal with. And they just affect me. And that was false. That was false. And so if I could go back five years and say, you know what?
Denver Whetten:I need to find a good coach that can help me coach me through my insecurities and help me create an identity statement of who I wanna be, and then help me see how how I can get there, I I think that would have helped that would have helped accelerate at least my development.
Ben Loy:If there's one thing you want someone to get from this episode on developing people, specifically, I think too in in the world of contracting and and construction and and concrete, which is what you do, like, what would you you say to them?
Denver Whetten:When we're in living our last days, I don't think it's gonna matter how much money we made, how many employees we had, how much revenue we did, what what what cool projects we did. I think what's gonna matter is is whose lives did we change. Like, we're we're making generational changes with our with our people who are giving up bad habits, who are changing their mentalities, who are changing the way they lead at home. And to me, that's what makes it all worth it. Like, that that is the that is the winning.
Denver Whetten:That is the winning at the end. And I think a lot of us think that it's about making money, about building a big business, about creating a legacy for ourselves, about being able to say we built that project, and none of that's gonna matter. But what is gonna matter is the relationships and what we were able to build amongst ourselves by building each other up.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, this has been incredible. And I I I really do just value the way that you prioritize people, the way that you're just intentional with the way that you you lead your team and and the people you're responsible for. And so, yeah, this has just been a really fun conversation and I appreciate your time.
Denver Whetten:Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity.
Ben Loy:Cool. Thanks, Denver.
Alex Judd:Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor?
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Alex Judd:Are you a leader that wants to grow your business in a healthy way, serve people exceptionally well, and glorify God in the process? Go to pathforgrowth.com to get more information about our community of impact driven leaders and schedule a call with our team. Hey, thank you so much to the Path for Growth team, Kyle Cummings and the crew at Podcircle, and the remarkable leaders that are actively engaged in the Path for Growth community. Y'all are the people that make this podcast possible. Y'all know this.
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