8 Beliefs for Healthy Growth
All right. So today we're talking about, eight beliefs for healthy growth, and this is something that a couple of them we've touched on before, we've discussed, and then a few that I'd really love to just dive a little bit deeper into. So, I'm gonna let you throw the first one out.
Alex Judd:So we're talking beliefs here, and the reason why belief is so critically important, especially in the life of a leader, is, like, your beliefs absolutely drive your behavior. And so often, you know, we live in a willpower oriented world oftentimes that we think we need to engage in in behavior modification. And oftentimes, what we actually need to do is we've internalized some poor or not true or false beliefs. And if we can reorient our beliefs, well, then we can reorient our behaviors more sustainably. And so with that, the first thing that we we have to believe if we're going to practice healthy growth, the first thing that we have to know, we've said it before, health and growth are not the same thing, which is like such a simple statement because it's like, it's literally two different words.
Alex Judd:Of course, they're not the same thing, but I think we often get them confused. Yeah.
Ben Loy:How do they interact? Like, is it is it a spectrum? Is it something like I guess, what does it look like when you have one and not the other?
Alex Judd:Yeah. It's a good question, and I'd be interested to know your thoughts on that question too. I think that we often perceive that if something is growing particularly in terms of quantity or size, then we just assume that it's healthy. Right? From a spiritual perspective, I think this is, like, very visible in the way we talk about churches.
Alex Judd:We're like, oh, man. This church has grown so much. They now have you know, they they start at one campus. Now they have five campuses, and, you know, they they now have x number of thousand people attending. And and it's crazy.
Alex Judd:We hear that more like, oh, man. That that's so cool. That is really healthy. Right? And it's like, well, really, we just said it's growing, which is a cool thing, and that's a good thing, and we praise God for growth.
Alex Judd:But don't just assume that the fact that it's growing means that it's healthy. And where that really, really matters is for the people that are responsible for stewarding both the health and the growth of the e the ecosystem or the organization is is like we can get this idea. Well, are we healthy? Of course, are. We're growing.
Alex Judd:We added three locations in the past year. Of course, we're healthy. It's like, well, I I that's not how I would answer that question is what I would say.
Ben Loy:Yeah. That's really interesting. I think I don't remember who it was at church. This is a few years ago. One of the pastors was up front and he was just like, we have a formula for, like, getting butts in seats.
Ben Loy:Like, if we wanted to grow this church, like, there's an actual formula to becoming a megachurch or to growing, you know, in that capacity. And, I mean, the reason they were bringing it up was because, like, I mean, it is not a bad thing when churches grow in that way, but, like, that is not what we're prioritizing in this season and for our community. And so focusing they were just saying they were focusing on other things.
Alex Judd:It's not really that different from what you and I were talking about this morning before we even started recording is it can be so easy to get focused on what we're busy with that that we miss out on health. And what we're really saying when we talk about health is, like, the vitals. Right? Like, Yeah. You know, if you're like, hey.
Alex Judd:I can run a marathon! And you go to your doctor and your doctor's like, Okay, but your cholesterol is going to kill you and like, you know, all these other vital markers that are critically important are like really in bad shape. I'm thrilled that you could run a marathon. That doesn't mean that you're healthy. Right?
Alex Judd:And I think it's the same thing. There's certain things that are like, that they're actually not all that different person to person. They don't change that much, but they do represent a healthy individual and we shouldn't just take those for granted because we're growing.
Ben Loy:Yeah. In a lot of contexts, when it comes to growth without health, there are there are a lot of formulas out there. There are a lot of rules you can follow, frameworks. Is there a framework for health?
Alex Judd:I think there are frameworks. Right? And and I like we already said, would just encourage people, do not think health at the highest level is a choose your own adventure game. Right? I I love that framework that Mike Valentin gave us at an experience a couple years ago.
Alex Judd:He said, god, marriage, kids work in that order. Period. Like, that that is what is healthy. And that's, like, not, like I I actually think that's not up for debate. Right?
Alex Judd:I'm not saying if if you don't have kids or if you're single or something like that. Right? Obviously, your world looks different in the season of life that you're in. But if you have each of those relationships in your life, like, that's the order that it's supposed to be in in terms of priority of your heart, your attention, and your mind. And it's the things, it's the order of sacrifice too that you should be operating in.
Alex Judd:Right? So that represents health in so many ways. You know, we could even look at just the other arenas that we're supposed to be attending to that it's not really up for debate or question. Right? Like your personal physical health, your sleep, your spiritual life, your ability to live in community with close friends, and family, your relationship with your spouse, right?
Alex Judd:Your ability to be intellectually growing as a leader, right? Like, these are things that it it it's what we've been given to steward and exercise self control over. And what's nice is because it's not a choose your own adventure thing on some of these things, it is something that we can pretty regularly come back to and just say, where am I supposed to be, and where am I at compared to where I'm supposed to be, and realign ourselves to where we're supposed to be.
Ben Loy:Let's move on to the second one because I think it's related and kind of where this conversation is going. Growth for the sake of growth is dead. Can you explain that?
Alex Judd:Well, this really shows up in the business arena. Right? Like, we we live in a time in the business arena where it's like, you need to 10 x your business. And you're like, why? And because 10 x.
Alex Judd:Right? And it's like, okay. I I understand what it is, but why? It's like, because 10 x. Right?
Alex Judd:And and it's like, 10 x is a fine goal. I actually have nothing wrong with 10 x as a goal. Right? As a reason, I I think 10 x is actually a terrible reason. And that's because I think, like, the entire impetus behind 10 x as a reason is this idea that, like, oh, once you 10 x it, that is there.
Alex Judd:And once you're there, you'll feel fulfilled, satisfied, content, all of these different things. And I I just think a paradigm of practicing healthy growth is radically different than that. What is your motive? Motive matters is what we constantly wanna help, you know, help people remember, and and, you know, it it's reflected in the proverb. I think it's four twenty three.
Alex Judd:Guard your heart above all else for out of it flows everything you do. The the Hebrew word for heart there, I believe, is. I'm trying to get my going with our Orthodox Jewish friends here. It's. A lot of times in Western culture, we talk about heart as being, like, your emotions.
Alex Judd:In this culture and what it means biblically is, like, the core of your being. It's the composition of your your totality of self and soul and will. It's the center of who you are. And so guard the center of who you are, your vitals, what matters most above all else. For out of that flows every single thing that you do.
Alex Judd:And so our motives are critically important, and we should really, really examine our motives. And and growth for the sake of growth, that's not a good motive.
Ben Loy:I I feel like this is something that I've heard mentioned a lot. And even more recently, I found talking about in conversations of, like, people will bring up a specific leader or a pastor or someone who acquired a lot of fame and momentum at one point. And then at some point, like, something happens, whether it's scandal or or just unhealthy leadership or the the the organization just falls apart from the inside out. And I feel like some, oftentimes the conversation is, man, at the beginning, they just seem so solid. Or even you'll even, like, hear from people who work with them in the inside, like, they seem so aligned at the beginning.
Ben Loy:Like, they seem like they had a virtuous purpose, behind what they were doing. Like, how do you protect from going astray as time goes on?
Alex Judd:Yeah. I mean, I I guess the first thing I would say is maybe one of the answers to it is, I I don't fully know because I don't I haven't fully done that. Right? Like, I you know, I could look up in five years, and there could be a podcast out there how Alex Judd and Path for Growth went astray. It's like we laugh about that.
Alex Judd:It's like the rise and fall of Path for Growth. Right? And it's like, we can laugh about that, but it's like, if I don't believe that that is a legit possibility, then that's strike strike one, two, and three, quite So I think, like, number one is recognize that you are wildly successful to the downfall that you've seen so many other people fall for. And the minute you think you're above or beyond that, you're the person that's most at risk of suffering for that. And then number two, I would say, like, because of that, I think the most humble leaders that I know and that I I try to follow in this regard is, like, they have rhythms and structures that hold them accountable to the things that they say matter most.
Alex Judd:So what a lot of people would say is like, man, the soul of this was so good at the beginning, but they got away from the soul of this. And a lot of times we have we don't have rhythms and structures for evaluating, hey. Is the soul of this still alive and well? And we do the same thing in our personal lives. Right?
Alex Judd:But it's wild how easy it is to start with a really compelling purpose or really strong why and then to look up five, ten years later, and the things that you're doing are in no way connected to that purpose, or that's not at all your driving motive anymore. And it looks completely different than the reason why you started, but it was one inch at a time that you deviated and never had anything to pull you back. It it's why, I mean, organizationally, in our quarterly meetings, we I mean, you were just part of our most recently core quarterly strategic planning meetings. There are a lot of really good quarterly strategic planning meeting formats out there. Most of them have you red, yellow, green your goals, and I think that's good.
Alex Judd:And we red, green our goals and our strategic priorities and our vision charter. We do all that. But before we do all of that, there's something different that we do that I see a lot of formats don't do, and that's we also red, yellow, green our mission and our values. And because they were like, if we achieve the goal, but we abandon our mission and values in the process, have we actually won? No.
Alex Judd:It's like we totally abandon health. We're not treating people well anymore for the sake of growth. And so I would say rhythm, structure. David Brooks says commitment is when you fall in love with something to such a degree that you put structure around it for the times when you no longer feel in love with it. And, man, leaders get on the roller coaster of growth, and it's exciting and it's energizing.
Alex Judd:And that roller coaster will take you places unless you have things to anchor and tether you to the things that actually matter most.
Ben Loy:I think you you've already spoken to this a little bit, but, like, why why do you think that's so common? Like, why do you think it's so common for leaders to to stray in that way?
Alex Judd:Yeah. And it's so disappointing that it's so common. There are so many stories, and and, like, everyone talks about the stories, and then some of the people that are even talking about the stories end up having the same story written about them. Right? And it's not even just like, oh, this is like a a thing that has existed, you know, in the new world that we live in.
Alex Judd:It's like for 2,000, people have been thinking riches are the answer, fame is the answer, power is the answer. And so I'm gonna go get all those things, and then it's gonna result in either, you know, me being completely depressed because the thing that I thought the answer wasn't or me letting down, I mean, so so so many people because I sold them on a lie because I bought the lie myself. And so why is it so common? Well, I I just literally read yesterday morning. Right?
Alex Judd:Jesus shakes his head and is, you know, almost sad, and he says, man, he's just disappointed how difficult it is for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Right? It's more difficult than for the camel to go through the eye of a needle. And I I think that's highlighting it. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, these other things are so promising and so attractive. And not only are other temptations, fame, power, outside approval, right, you know, fear of man. Not only are all these things so tempting, I am so wildly susceptible to that. Like, is something broken in my heart that has literally been convinced that, oh, that's the answer. That's the thing that's gonna make all of this right.
Alex Judd:And because the world is putting those things on blast and marketing them to us every day as wildly available and I'm wildly susceptible, it's like two puzzle pieces. So but the cool thing about that verse is, man, then the disciples go, well, how can anyone enter the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus literally says, well, with man, it's impossible, but with God, all things are possible. And so there you go. There's a there's a core answer to what it looks like to grow in a healthy way where you're becoming more of who God actually created you to be is, like, you gotta do it with God.
Alex Judd:And and I think this gets into the idea of health and growth. It's like we sometimes think I'm gonna grow, and then I'm gonna meet God at the finish line. It's like, with God, all things are positive. It's not it's not you you grow and then there's God. It's with God, and we gotta remember that.
Ben Loy:Yeah. This works really well into the third belief. And partly because when we were preparing for this, I read it and I was like, this could be a heresy.
Alex Judd:Yeah. You don't Okay. You don't want explain it. Share the belief and then you explain your thought process Well,
Ben Loy:you said, like, so the the belief is fulfillment is an inside job. Yeah. And, like, immediately I mean, that's what the world tells us in so many ways. It's like, you know, self fulfillment is the way and, like Yeah. You know, yeah, just just look within, you know, navel gaze, like, build yourself up in a way, and that's when you'll be fulfilled, be Yeah.
Ben Loy:Be at peace, whatever. And, so it is funny because you're like, fulfillment is an inside job, but what do you mean by that versus, like, that context? Because Yeah. We're talking two very different inside jobs, I think.
Alex Judd:That's the the that's the most, kind way to say, are you a heretic? I'm not positive? Yeah. I think I'm thinking about this from the the perspective of if you are a believer.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? And so, really, what I think of the first time I think of, like, fulfillment as an inside job is I I think of the Ecclesiastes story. Herman Melville was the author of, Moby Dick. He was an atheist, and he said Ecclesiastes was the truest of all books, which I think if I was an atheist, I would say, well, then it's probably worth paying attention to. Right?
Alex Judd:Even more so as believers that this thing was so accurate and so convincing that someone that said, I don't agree. I don't agree with the philosophy behind the bible at all, but I agree with Ecclesiastes. It's really worth paying attention to, especially for the cultural moment that we live in because as a believer I'm like, well then this is, you know, this this philosophy and somehow connects with what people experience as real. And what is Ecclesiastes the story of? It's the story of, you know, a man that pursued multiple different avenues to find fulfillment and ran the course of every single avenue.
Alex Judd:He said, I'm gonna pursue riches, and he gained all the money in the world. And he said, and it was vanity. It was dust in the wind. It didn't mean anything. Right?
Alex Judd:It was a vapor. It just drifted. And then he said, I'm gonna even pursue wisdom, which we would even say like, Ecclesiastes is a book of wisdom. And he said, I'm gonna grow myself with knowledge. And I and he even says, I'm gonna understand everything about plants and insects and animals and the way the world is designed and created.
Alex Judd:And he said, I'm gonna pursue wisdom, and he became a a man of great wisdom. And the outcome of that, vanity. Right? It's all dust in the wind. It's all vapor.
Alex Judd:And then he, you know, pursues pleasure and and concubines galore and all of that. Vanity. Right? Which, you know, if I was one of those concubines, I'd feel very offended. But he says, like, none of it actually mattered and none of it actually fulfilled.
Alex Judd:Right? None of it was good. And what he comes to is, like, what is life actually about? He says, like, eat, drink, find enjoyment in your toil, and glorify the god who made it all possible. And, like, you are dust.
Alex Judd:From dust, you came to dust, you will return. And it's a much more simpler form of fulfillment than than what the world tries to tell us fulfillment comes from.
Ben Loy:So, yeah, let's zone in a little bit on what you just said, which was it's a simpler form of fulfillment than what the world offers. Like, break that down a little bit more.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I I think the world says fulfillment's around the corner, and I think fulfillment is something all these other people have that if you would just do these things or if you could just get these things, consumerism, right, or if you could just be these things, well, then fulfillment is what you will experience. Right? It's a chase, and and, you know, there are literally messages out there that that illustrate fulfillment as a chase, and that once you get the thing that you're chasing, well, then you'll you'll feel full. And what we're really saying here is then you'll feel whole.
Alex Judd:You'll feel complete. And that is theologically atrocious. Right? But so easy to fall for. Right?
Alex Judd:I'm I'm not I'm not beyond this. Right? And that's partially because the messages are so loud. But let's just think for a second how good that message is for marketing. Right?
Alex Judd:I mean, this is this is your sphere on our team, and it's like why I think healthy growth for marketing is a really like, I want us to teach on that topic. I want us to talk on that topic. I want us to think about that topic because standard marketing oftentimes is rooted in convince people that they've got this problem, that if they don't solve this problem, they will not be okay. And and life cannot be good. They cannot experience the good life until they get on the other side of that problem being solved.
Alex Judd:And for $9.99, I can hope you saw that. And it's like, man, you're you know, it's snake oil at that point. Right? It's like, what do we have to do to be fulfilled? Right?
Alex Judd:Love God and recognize that he loves you. Love people. Right? And do good work that you deem meaningful because it's what he created. And, like, that's it.
Alex Judd:Eat, drink, enjoy the toil that you've been given to do on this earth. Right? And that is fulfillment, and we make it overly complex.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I think contentment is a really interesting conversation.
Alex Judd:The next one too.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yep. Do you wanna do you wanna say this one?
Alex Judd:Sure. I can.
Ben Loy:Go for it.
Alex Judd:So the next one, number four is contentment and growth, can coexist. I'd be interested to know what your initial thoughts on that one are.
Ben Loy:I mean, I think it has everything to do with where you're centered, which is, what we've already been talking about. Are you growing for the sake of growth? And, I mean, that's just a that's just an either I guess depending on how you look at it, a bottomless pit or, like, an endless ceiling, right? Like, you'll always have the next thing to to strive for, to to go for. And and that's not to say that I think setting goals is is bad, but I think there is a certain level of gratefulness that you you carry when you're you're content with what you've been given, but also you have a a vision for what things could be.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I have literally heard people say, I just never wanna be content. I wanna keep moving forward. I never wanna be content. And I I think what they're actually saying there is I never wanna be complacent.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And that that's a good desire. You never wanna be complacent. But what is complacency? It's laziness, lethargy, stagnancy, stultification. Right?
Alex Judd:It's you're you're just consuming. You're not moving forward at all. There's no output. There's no productivity. What is contentment?
Alex Judd:It's joy, gratitude, and presence in the present, right, is what contentment is. And there's nothing about being joyful, grateful, happy, satisfied in the present that prevents you from growing into the future. Right? People even say, I never wanna be satisfied. And I get the sentiment, but, like, why where did we get the idea that, like, we can either be satisfied or we can be growing, but we can't be both?
Alex Judd:I would just say, like, why did you ever adopt that you you can't have both at the same time? Like, the person that inspired me the most in this, and and when you actually start looking for this, it is hard to find. Because I've reached conversations in in coaching relationships before where the individual that I'm talking to, right, in a one on one coaching relationship, they stumble upon this question. They literally ask the question, how do I grow in such a way that I'm also, like, joyful where I am and present where I am? And I'm like, that's the money question.
Alex Judd:And what I always tell them is find someone you know that you think is doing that. Right? And what's crazy is I ask them, like, do you know anyone locally, or do you know anyone from your past that's doing that right now, like, that you think has cracked the code on how to do that? And the number of people that say, I don't know if I know anyone. It is so hard.
Alex Judd:It's so hard to find. Right? But, I mean, one of the people that I think of is Mike Valentin who, I mean, he's been one of my greatest mentors. He he married Aspen and I. The dude is just like he's, like, one of the more intense people I've ever met.
Alex Judd:He's always moving forward. He's, like, always growing. I'll never forget. Like, I I first met him when he was in his late fifties. Right?
Alex Judd:And in his late fifties, he was telling me about a sprinter's camp that he had just signed up for that he was learning how to sprint better because he wanted to get a faster 40 time. I was like, that's pretty epic. Right? And and at the same time, he it's just not like, oh, I'm doing this sprinter camp so that I can finally be who I'm created to be. It's that's not it at all.
Alex Judd:He is, like, absurdly joyful in the moment. Like, the when when I used to work with him, people would always, like, joke around. It's like, he would talk to me, and and he would figure out what I was interested in. And and, you know, at that time, it was Ironman Triathlon, and he would just grill me with questions. And every time I answer anything, he'd say, fascinating.
Alex Judd:Fascinating, Alex. This is amazing. And, like, literally, like, I mean, the whole hallway would hear the conversation. And then two hours later, I would hear him talking to my friend who loved Disney World, and he would be asking him questions about Disney World, and he would be equally enthusiastic. He would say, fascinating.
Alex Judd:That is amazing. Right? And it's just like the guy was so content. He was over flowing with joy and simultaneously growing and moving forward. It's like, that that's what I want.
Alex Judd:And if we want that, we better have examples of it in our life.
Ben Loy:This is related, so I'll share it. But the guy so I took a swift water rescue course once, and, it was with a group of of rescue swimmers and we were in the middle of, like, nowhere in Northern California on the Trinity River and we're practicing catching eddies. And so what that is, is like when there is an area in the topography of a river where the water is flowing forward, it's flowing downstream, but then there's a spot that essentially gets backfilled because it's not covered by the downstream, it creates this, like, reverse current. Oh. And it's actually, like, kind of a safe haven in any water rescue situation or, like, if you if you're a waterman, if you spend time on the river kayaking and things, like, it's a place you can pull off to kind of rest.
Alex Judd:And
Ben Loy:so one of the things that we learned in this course was to, like, pull off and catch these eddies. And there was a guy in that class who was same same thing, like, endurance athlete, like, always just felt like he was just pumped with endorphins and just always smiling, always had a good disposition. And we're practicing catching these eddies and we're staying at the edge of this river, and there were there was one you could catch, and then there was another one that you could catch. And then if you didn't catch that one, you were just, like, downstream. And sure enough, he he tries the first one, he doesn't make it.
Ben Loy:Tries the second one, doesn't make it. And it's like, we're just watching him get like, we're like, nobody has gone that far down the river, like, don't know where he's gonna pull up. And you just see in the California sun, like, his pearly white smile just going all the way down. It's like, he doesn't know where he's going. We don't know where he's going, but he's he's just smiling.
Ben Loy:We're having a
Alex Judd:good We're having a good time. Yeah. I mean, and that's what we I think because it would be so easy. You know, I could see myself being the person who's like, dad, govin, I missed it. And then I missed it again.
Alex Judd:And then, like, your your reality isn't lining up with your expectations, and so now you're frustrated and upset. And, man, I certainly go up and down on this. But I think last week, I was telling Aspen yesterday was Sunday, so I was telling Aspen this yesterday. I was like, man, when I I I slept better this past week, and I think one of the reasons why I slept better is because there are a couple things that happen like, there's always things that happen that are outside of expectation or that are a bummer or that are, like, just, you know, different than what you thought it was gonna be, things like that, or even mistakes or failures or things like that. Right?
Alex Judd:And there were things that happen, and I felt like last week, I did a good job of, like, oh, man. That's interesting that that happened. What what is God teaching us in this? And, like, that was my genuine attitude. And it's like, what is God teaching us in this?
Alex Judd:And, like, man, so often we just dwell and beat ourselves up and beat others up about these things that we can't actually control. It would be better just say that happened, like, what is God teaching us here? And then, you know, to enjoy as we're floating down the river, right, making figure out how to have a big pearly white smile helps too. So yeah. You wanna move to the next one?
Ben Loy:Yeah. My work is not who I am. My work is where I serve.
Alex Judd:Yeah. We've talked about this at length on this podcast since we launched the video channel, but I first heard John Eldridge say this quote. I I was like, man, I wanna write that down. I wanna memorize that. I wanna share that.
Alex Judd:And it's one of the things that we share pretty regularly that I hear repeated back to me as something that leaders want to continually remind themselves of. And, really, it's just there's such a gift of bringing your whole self to what you do. Right? And that that is such a joy. Right?
Alex Judd:And, you know, I would never just want a J O B, right, where it's like, I'm just clocking in. I'm not at all personally invested in this, but it pays the bills, and I go there from eight to five, and then I get to actually have life outside of that. I would never want that. But if I'm gonna say I want to do something different than that, especially if I'm gonna be a believer, then I've gotta remember that it's like, okay. But you cannot make your work your life, and you certainly cannot make your work who you are.
Alex Judd:And that's the thing that's tempting is you say, I don't want the j o b, so I'm gonna give my whole self to this thing. And then before you know it, you literally gave your whole self to that thing. And and you are wrapped into that thing in a way that's inextricable, and and then we put your face on it and your name on it and all of that. And you cannot distinguish between the performance of the business and your well-being. And I I've just seen that be such a treacherous path.
Alex Judd:It's not at all healthy growth, and so that's why I think this is a belief we have to internalize is your work is where you serve, which that that is such like a workman's attitude. I like that. In some ways, I think it's actually really helpful. You know? I don't just want a j o b, but I am I you know, on my best days, I go upstairs at 8AM to this room that we're sitting in right now, which is now our office.
Alex Judd:I give Lily a kiss on her forehead, and I give Aspen a kiss, and sometimes we say a prayer, and I say, okay. I'm going to work. And then we make a joke as I walk up the stairs that this is my commute, and, like, this is where I'm going to serve. And then, you know, hopefully, serve for the day, and then I close the computer at the end of the day. And then I close that door, and I walk downstairs, and it's like, okay.
Alex Judd:You know, that might have been a really tough day. That might have been a really great day. Good thing. Nothing about that day represents who I am. Now And I get to come home and be with people that just love me for who I am, which is really important.
Ben Loy:It really gives you the power to be present Yeah. In each moment.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Including in at at work.
Ben Loy:Yeah. 100%.
Alex Judd:Yeah. It's one of the things that I've recognized about Brian and Shannon who are speaking at our experience in Austin coming up is it's wild. I mean, you know, objectively, if we're just gonna put it on paper, they are incredibly more successful than I am, right, if we're putting it on paper. They're also older than me, so I'm gonna try and catch up to them. But, I wanna give them a run for their money.
Alex Judd:But on paper, they're more successful than I am. And what's interesting is they take it less personally than I do. Like, everything, they take less personally than I I do. And, you know, I think of the way I take things so personally as a great strength. And in some ways, I actually think their way of doing things is an incredible strength because, what did I hear someone say?
Alex Judd:I I wrote it down yesterday because it was so good. They say, like, I don't wanna be a crystal chandelier. I wanna be a rubber bouncy ball. Right? That when stuff happens, we just respond, and it's not like, something happened.
Alex Judd:My world is shattered. Right? It's like, don't be so sensitive. Don't take it so personally. Just respond.
Alex Judd:Just bounce back.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Do you have any examples for what this has looked like in your life when it when it wasn't healthy?
Alex Judd:Yes. I paused a little bit just because I, you know, I always want to make sure I'm not being overly raw and transparent before I've I've talked through things with Aspen and with people that I consider wise counsel. But I we had a genuinely really good conversation about this yesterday, so it feels appropriate to me to share. I, in some quiet prayer and reflection time associated with a class that you and I are in at church, one of the questions associated with the prayer and reflection time that I was doing is it said, like, what are some things that you notice about this season that you wanna be curious about or something like that? And one of the things that I realized that thank god for this little speed bump.
Alex Judd:Right? Because otherwise, I wouldn't have have recognized it, I don't think, and the ramifications could have been really bad is, like, man, I'm I'm, like, kind of operating with this lingering feeling, especially with our daughter now and and work. And, I mean, it's incredible fruitful season at work, which is really cool. And I'm I still have only been married for, you know, two years now. I realized, like, I am living with this lingering feeling of, like, I'm not doing enough.
Alex Judd:Like, I'm just not doing enough in any of those arenas. And I said, like, the thing that I wanted to be curious about is, like, what exactly am I defining as enough? And in that moment, I could not answer that question. And it it spurred a really, really good conversation with Aspen and I about enough and, like, what that actually means and all of that. But, what really was going on there and why it connects to this is it it wasn't just I'm not doing enough.
Alex Judd:It's I'm not enough. It was actually a belief that was an identity statement that was absolutely affecting the way that I did things. Right? Whereas conversely, like, if I just say, man, what what is actually enough? Well, enough is number one, I have to believe that I am enough or, like, with Christ for all of the areas that he's given me to steward.
Alex Judd:And then on top of that, what is my role is to serve, to do my best, to glorify God, and to love people. And that, like, that is enough. And for the areas that that's inadequate or not enough, like, there is grace for that. Right? But, again, I think it was, like, really the identity of I am not enough getting woven into my work, my life, and everything that took me away from even being able to serve with a good heart in some ways.
Ben Loy:So this segues right into the next one that we're talking about, right? The number six is my standard is commitment, not perfection. And so I guess in this context, that enough was like this somewhat ominous standard of perfection that you had placed.
Alex Judd:Dude, yeah. And I mean, you know, I'm sure people can empathize with this. Like, we we we have a one year old daughter. She has a very rare genetic disorder that makes her incredibly demanding, but she is just such a joy right now. She's so much fun.
Alex Judd:But she's now walking. Praise God for that because that's actually not a given with the disorder that she has. She's walking all over the house. Right? And literally, like, her favorite thing to do is to open drawers and pull everything out.
Alex Judd:Right? So, like, that's something going on. On top of that, like, you know, we've we've been in this house now for a little bit over a year and it's like we're trying to solve for grass in the backyard in the middle of the desert. And grass is like a really hard like, we tried one summer and it just flat out didn't work. And so now we're trying again, and I'm trying to solve for that.
Alex Judd:Meanwhile, we've got a tree in our backyard that I'm trying to bring back to life, and I cannot figure out what's wrong with it. Like, I'm trying to revive this thing, and meanwhile, I'm telling myself, like, I'm the healthy growth guy, and the one tree we have in our backyard is dying. And, like, you know, like, we're we're often figuring out what's for dinner, like, halfway through the day, and there's just all these things that it's like, I can convince myself one day we're gonna get to a spot where there's none of those things because we, you know, like, the little hinge that's broken on the door is fixed, the grass is all fully grown, and the tree is fully grown and healthy, and, like, everything's well. And all the stuff that Lily pulled out the doors is pulled up. And that's a standard of perfection that if I'm waiting for that day, I will I will never find contentment, joy, gratitude.
Alex Judd:Right? And, I mean, everyone listening to this that owns or leads in a business knows the exact same scenario exists in your business. And it's like, we we can't apply ourselves to a standard of perfection to be joyful, content, and grateful. We cannot do that. What we have to apply ourselves to is a standard of commitment.
Alex Judd:Like, I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna own my shortfalls and move forward from them, and I'm gonna keep moving forward and get better every single day. Like, that's the three parts to to commitment. Right? The standard of commitment.
Alex Judd:And, man, if you do that, that's what God is requesting from you.
Ben Loy:Yeah. So how does the pursuit of commitment versus the pursuit of perfection shape a person?
Alex Judd:It views everything as practice. Right? That when I wake up in the morning, today is not game seven of the World Series, right, which is if I if I don't win today, man, we're done, and we don't get another game. Right? We're out.
Alex Judd:It's today is another opportunity to practice, And that practice is going to form me. Right? It's going to shape me, to use your word, into someone that's more equipped for the responsibilities and tasks associated with tomorrow. And tomorrow will be a practice opportunity that I'm gonna go and I'm gonna give my best, and I'm gonna make mistakes, and I'm gonna own those mistakes and receive grace for them, and then I'm gonna get a little bit better. And that practice is gonna make me a little bit better for the next day.
Alex Judd:Right? And so I I just think it's like, I'm not quitting. Right? And, thankfully, god willing, there's a tomorrow, and so I'm just gonna keep moving forward. I'm just gonna keep chipping away, and I'm gonna keep showing up and making deposits in the right direction.
Alex Judd:And just, I'm gonna trust that that's enough. Right? I think that's a standard of commitment. And just adopting that mindset, I think shapes and forms you.
Ben Loy:I mean, to use the example you used earlier with the the rubber and the chandelier, and I think even maybe even, like, clay versus a chandelier. One, like, the standard of perfection is fragile, and it creates a system that is fragile.
Alex Judd:That's right.
Ben Loy:Like, the standard of commitment means you have the understanding that, like, life is long and that it takes time to to grow and to be formed and to change. And, like, yeah, be be clay. Be rubber. Don't be the chandelier.
Alex Judd:Yeah. There's a a actually, I wrote his name down for later in our outline, but I'm also gonna reference him at our long game leadership talk in in Austin coming up. Founder of Patagonia, he he refers to himself as a reluctant business owner.
Ben Loy:Yeah. That sounds about right.
Alex Judd:Yeah. His name is Yvonne Chanard is his name. And he says, yeah, his book, which is brilliant, is Let My People Go Surfing is what is what is titled. And, like, the way they run work, this is, like, his version of freedom and responsibility. It's like, these are our work hours, but if the waves are good, you should always leave.
Alex Judd:It's like incredible. Very cool. And so they did growth for the sake of growth for a while. It's part of the story of Patagonia. And because of some inventory things and some quality things, they were moving at a pace that they couldn't guard quality.
Alex Judd:They were way over indexed on inventory. They were way over leveraged, and it almost tanked the company. It almost tanked the mission of Patagonia. And he said they had a a very firm line in the sand moment where they basically said, we are going from now on, we are going we will not do this anymore. We are going to build this company in such a way that it will be around in a hundred years.
Alex Judd:And so instead of prioritizing our quarterly numbers or our next sales goal or just beating what we did last month, we are going to operate as though we are going to be around in a hundred years. And that that's what we're aiming for. And that's expanding your time horizon is what that is. And what's crazy is the minute you start thinking about building a hundred year company, it's this paradox that happens, is number one, you realize today doesn't really matter. Like, in the context of the history of this hundred year company, today doesn't really matter.
Alex Judd:Right? This is one of so many thousands of days, and today doesn't really matter. But then in the context of a hundred year company, today really matters. Like, if we can't do today right, why do we even get the right to think about a 100? And I think it's living with that paradox and understanding the wisdom associated with that paradox.
Alex Judd:If life is long, life is short. Right? This matters. This doesn't really matter. That that's where we start to find these rhythms of health and grace and growth and forward motion that are actually really wise.
Alex Judd:Man, that perspective is just how it's
Ben Loy:like having it's just a having a right view of yourself, like, right perspective of yourself. Like, I mean, we're believers, right, based on what Scripture tells us, like, is significance to life and significance to our lives. And then at the same time, like, God is outside time and space and, like, He we are we are one individual in this vast spans of creation that He has He has made and, like, having the humility to see and understand as much and as big as that gets, and also at the same time, the intentionality to understand that at the same time, like, God has designed you with significance, and God has designed your day with significance. Mhmm. That's really interesting.
Alex Judd:I think it's Jerry Seinfeld. I I'm not positive, but this will be the first time we've talked about Jerry Seinfeld on this podcast, so that's fun. We should do that one. It's so good to but I think it was, I think it was him, which I I don't think he's a believer. So I I would actually wanna ask him questions about this if I ever got the chance.
Alex Judd:Jerry, if you're listening, we'd love to have you. But he he has a sheet of paper printed with a picture from the Hubble Space Telescope. I believe it's from the Hubble, on it, and he explains the picture. And you basically see all these what looks like stars. Right?
Alex Judd:And you're like, oh, wow. That's so beautiful, all the stars. And if you actually understand what the picture is of, he says, like, every single one of those, like, glowing dots that you see is a galaxy that is comparable to the size of the Milky Way galaxy that our solar system resides in. Like, it's not even just our solar system. It's our solar system resides in a galaxy, and every single one of these dots is one of those galaxies.
Alex Judd:And it's like, that exists right now. Like, the universe is so huge. And it's like, the thing that I admire about Jerry is, like, he's looking at that just to remember, like, this, like, stand up comedy thing that I'm doing tonight, like, I'm nervous about this joke and if people are gonna laugh tonight or not, like, it does not matter. Like, this thing is huge. Right?
Alex Judd:But at the same time, he treats his stand up comedy like a professional. He treats it so seriously. And I just think there's so that's such a cool interplay that I think we're all called to, and I think that that's part of healthy growth.
Ben Loy:So I'm gonna call an audible, and we have two more here.
Alex Judd:Okay.
Ben Loy:But I think I think our conversation right now feeds really well into the last principle we have, which is I'm not gonna see this finished. And originally when I read this, I was like, well, that's kind of a depressing thought.
Alex Judd:You know? I agree. Yeah.
Ben Loy:And kinda and and the way I read it was like, oh, like, this is like, this seems a little negative. But I I guess once we had talked about it, was like, I understand the perspective that you're coming from now, and I agree. So would you elaborate on that a little bit?
Alex Judd:Yeah. Well, I guess we should define what is finished. And if finished is whole and complete, then the beautiful thing is is this this truth is a lie if you're a believer. Right? Because if you're a believer, then you know this side of heaven, I will not see this finished.
Alex Judd:But heaven is wholeness. It's god's kingdom invading the earth and all things being full and complete. Right? There's a great book, by Mike Goheen, who lives here in Arizona, called the drama of scripture, and he just asserts that the bible is the true story of the entire universe. And within that true story, there's four movements.
Alex Judd:Right? Creation, fall, redemption, and then restoration. And theologians call this unique time period that we live in called the already but not yet. Meaning, redemption has occurred. Sin has been defeated.
Alex Judd:God's kingdom is actively invading the earth, but it has not fully invaded the earth is the thing that we have to remember. And until that does invade the earth, which is what we are honestly hoping for, praying for, and we want to see that come to pass, we live in the already, but not yet. Right? Like, we we do not get to see the totality of what's coming to pass. We hold on to the hope that we will, but I think that this is helpful and should not be depressing more than anything because it just sets our expectations.
Alex Judd:Is this side of heaven, there is no there. Right? And this is where I am as much of a sucker for the race or the mountain or the ladder analogy as anyone else. I love those analogies and those metaphors. Eventually, the metaphor breaks down because at this side of heaven, there is no there.
Alex Judd:And if you're expecting there to be a there where you're like, finally, everything in my life is exactly as it should be because I individually and personally made it that way, you're gonna be incredibly dissatisfied, and you're you you are by nature engaging in unhealthy growth because you're setting yourself up with unrealistic expectations. I think what you're longing for there is a hole that only heaven can fill. And in the meantime, you say, man, I'm gonna walk with God not in peacetime, but in wartime, and I'm gonna play my part in that wartime mentality is what I would say. So that hopefully, that's not heretical. And hopefully, that reframes the way you originally were.
Ben Loy:No. I think you're good. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Yeah. Anything you'd add to that?
Ben Loy:I think before the we hit record, you were talking about Moses. Mhmm. And I thought that that was a really it's just a really compelling example of that. Especially since, I mean, he yeah, he he led the Israelites through the desert all the way up to the promised land and from a mountain, like, saw it, but never he he never stepped foot in it.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Isn't that crazy? God took him up to the top of the mountain and said, look at the promised land.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And then he said, you're not gonna see that. You're gonna die.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yep. Rough. Which, you know, from a kingdom mentality, it's like, well, would I rather would I rather go walk in the promised land or or go spend eternity with with the Lord? Sure.
Ben Loy:It's like, alright, I'll take The old man. I'll take the Lord
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:You know, 10 times out of 10.
Alex Judd:And and what a gracious gift of God too that, like, God probably knew what is one of the things that Moses is most concerned about. Well, it's like the the sustainability of the movement that he was a part of creating. Right? Like, the seeing the Jewish people step into the thing that he led them towards, and God did show him that, like, which is so cool. And then, I mean, there's so, in numbers in Deuteronomy, I think, like, Moses does such a brilliant job of executing intentional succession.
Alex Judd:Like, the way he hands off, authority to Joshua so that Joshua can be the one to lead them into the promised land, and that's, like, the the continuation of healthy growth into a topic about succession is like, you're not gonna be see this finished, but if you do this right, you will see it continued. And you or one of your responsibilities if you've been given something by God is to either see it end well or to see it continued. One of those two things. And and Moses is a great example of seeing something continued well, I think.
Ben Loy:Yeah. So we'll we'll move on to the last one. God's promises are not found outside of God's boundaries.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I mean, we could use a a biblical example here too. Like, Abraham is told, you're gonna be the father of many nations, and he latches on to that, and his wife latches on to that too. But then it's not happening, and they're they're pretty old. Right?
Alex Judd:And they're like, you know, when are we gonna have this son that you've promised us? And so they take matters into their own hands, and they say, we are going to have a son, but we're gonna have this son by another woman, which is they but what's interesting is they they are still expecting the blessing of God, but they've left the boundaries of God. God said one man and one woman will be joined together, and they shall be one flesh, they shall not depart from it. Right? Is what God said.
Alex Judd:And meanwhile, it's like they're completely ignoring that part, and they're still expecting the blessing to come to pass. They're like, oh, we're gonna basically jerry rig this thing. And it doesn't happen that way. Right? It still the the blessing still happens and the promise still happens, but it's within God's boundaries that it occurs.
Alex Judd:And it's miraculous how it occurs, but it is within the boundaries. Here's why I think this applies to leaders and why it applies to this conversation is so often we say, man, God, I I want you to grow and and prosper my business. And in the process of us working, because we know that we're participants in that, and the process of us working to see God grow and prosper the business that we own or lead, maybe our marriage is suffering, maybe, we're letting our health being our sleep or our eating habits, we're not drinking enough water. Right? Like, your body is the temple of the holy spirit.
Alex Judd:We've completely abandoned that thing that god's given us to steward. Maybe we don't have a a community of fellow believers. Maybe we we don't have any rhythm with connecting with or worshiping god through prayer and corporate worship and study of scripture. So maybe we're not doing any of those things, but we're saying, God, will you prosper and grow my business? And it's like you're asking you're doing what Abraham did.
Alex Judd:You're you're asking for the promise of God's outside of god's boundaries. Like, you left god's boundaries a long time ago. And what's interesting is, like, you might still experience business growth. Your business might still prosper. I would even say, like, it probably will because you're giving it so much single-minded attention.
Alex Judd:Here's what I've seen to be true, though. You will not experience it as blessing. It may grow and it may prosper, but you will not experience it as blessing because God's boundaries are are given to us not to hinder our experience of life, but to actually promote our experience of abundant life. And so therefore, we shouldn't leave the boundaries. That's like I mean, it's literally like a football player snapping the ball and then running outside the boundary markers, leaving the stadium, going around the stadium, coming through the other entrance, and running through the back of the end zone and saying touchdown.
Alex Judd:It doesn't work that way. You've got to operate within the boundaries of the game, and that's when you're going to experience true victory.
Ben Loy:I read and reread the celebration of discipline by Richard Foster Yeah. Really pretty much every year and slowly. But, I was reading the prayer chapter recently, and he talks about using his imagination or use the use of imagination during prayer. And always just like a really compelling and and thought provoking thing to read. But one of the examples he uses was actually he talks about him praying for for, like, sexuality, and he he mentions, like, a river and how, like, sex is something God designed with with boundaries, like, something something good and it is meant to it is an ecosystem that is meant to promote life and flourishing.
Ben Loy:And, I mean, you could just the metaphors and the ways in which water and rivers are bring life is I mean, you could you just would limitless. Like, you're just gonna run But he talks about how, like, when when that river we've just experienced a lot of rain in Arizona, so this is really relevant.
Alex Judd:It literally never happens. Yeah. When that river
Ben Loy:grows outside of its boundaries, right, outside of the banks in which it was created to be in, it it's it wreaks havoc and it's destruction and there's death and that yeah. That idea of, like, within the boundaries that that this was created and that this is meant to be, it is a beautiful thing that brings life and joy and fulfillment and flourishing. But, like, when that breaches beyond the way that it was designed, it's it's gonna cause chaos.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And what's I mean, you know, it's a probably a good exercise for all of us to say, you know, physically very evident how that applies to sex, applies to money, applies to leadership, applies to marriage, applies to kids, applies to personal growth, all of it. And it's, like, probably a really good exercise to ask, like, what's the river? Like, what are the banks that god gave me for this thing? And, like, am I operating within those banks, or am I overflowing beyond those banks?
Alex Judd:So I Ben, I love that illustration. That's so good.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Really powerful. Alright. Was there anything else that you wanted to say on this topic?
Alex Judd:I would just say that things change for me in our business when I adopted a sense of resolve around healthy growth. Because you you I mean, quite frankly, you're probably gonna stick out like a sore thumb. Mhmm. And because it's very countercultural, you're gonna be doing things that are different to such they're so different sometimes that you're like, is this even right? Like, should I be doing this?
Alex Judd:And so you really have to have a sense of resolve around, I'm going to grow this in a way that's healthy, and you have to under like, have a vision for what that looks like and then get around people that value that as much as you do. Because in isolation, healthy growth never occurs in isolation. I actually believe that. So get around other people that value that, that are pursuing that, that want that. No one's gonna be perfect at it, but find people that are committed to that because number one, you're gonna find people that are a couple steps ahead of you, but then number two, you're you're gonna be reinforced in the journey because it's definitely a journey.
Alex Judd:It's not a destination.
Ben Loy:Well, thank you. Thanks, Ben.
Alex Judd:Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor?
Alex Judd:Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement. We wanna amplify what's valuable to you and obviously reduce or even remove the things that aren't. Also, you leaving a positive review is what helps us connect with, build trust with, and serve other leaders around the country. So thanks in advance for helping us out on that front.
Alex Judd:Are you a leader that wants to grow your business in a healthy way, serve people exceptionally well, and glorify God in the process. Go to pathforgrowth.com to get more information about our community of impact driven leaders and schedule a call with our team. Hey, thank you so much to the Path4Growth team, Kyle Cummings and the crew at PodCircle, and the remarkable leaders that are actively engaged in the Path4Growth community. Y'all the people that make this podcast possible. Y'all know this.
Alex Judd:We're rooting for you. We're praying for you. We wanna see you win. Remember, my strength is not for me. Your strength is not for you.
Alex Judd:Our strength is for service. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.
Ben Loy:Hey.
