Path for Growth

[00:00:02] Ben Loy: so people talk a lot about leadership and leadership growth.

[00:00:05] Ben Loy: Is there a roadmap that people

[00:00:07] Ben Loy: follow when they're looking to grow as a leader?

[00:00:09] Alex Judd: Well, you nailed one thing. People talk a

[00:00:12] Alex Judd: lot about leadership growth, right?

[00:00:14] Alex Judd: I'm, I recently, uh, went through a book

[00:00:16] Alex Judd: called The End of Leadership, which was a little bit convicting because we're in the leadership space. I was like, we ro I should probably read that. But, uh, Barbara Kellerman, she's a, a. Harvard PhD and, and she's just done a ton of research on this topic and she said it's a multi-billion, that's with a b it's a multi-billion dollar industry leadership, growth and development.

[00:00:37] Alex Judd: And, and kind of the case that she makes in that book is like, we are spending billions of dollars in this. And it, it doesn't seem like our leaders are actually getting all that much better to, which I would say, well, I've got a group of about 60 that I would put toe to toe with you, Barbara Kellerman, but, but, it highlights the reality that it's a topic that we're very interested in, but oftentimes, uh, when we talk about leadership development, our strategy associated with that vision, which I think it's a very, it's a very good vision. Our strategy is just overwhelm people with content. Just throw content.

[00:01:10] Alex Judd: Doesn't matter the order, doesn't matter, the sequence, doesn't matter. The execution or application. Just give people a stack of books, and that's how they grow as a leader and in reality. It's not that at all. Certainly growth always has information included. That's what content is, right? properly pursued.

[00:01:28] Alex Judd: Good content is good information, but part of that word, information, information, I think real leadership growth comes when we start to sequence that content. When we start to build, to use your language, a map. Then outta that, people can identify, okay, here's where I am currently. Here are my strengths that I can amplify, but then also, here are my gaps that I can fill.

[00:01:50] Alex Judd: And also that's where the next stage is. That's, that's what the next phase of my development and growth looks like. And so that's really the scaffolding of what we're gonna be walking through today is just a very, very, very, uh, low resolution, basic, simple map of what it looks like to grow as a leader over time.

[00:02:08] Alex Judd: I

[00:02:08] Ben Loy: I mean, that makes sense 'cause I've heard it said a lot. Great leaders not only lead other people well, but it starts with being able to lead yourself well. And so if you don't have a vision for. How you're growing as a leader and where you want to go. are you really leading other people well? Like yeah, it's kind of

[00:02:25] Alex Judd: That, I mean, that's a, a foundational principle of our company, right?

[00:02:28] Alex Judd: When, whenever I was working at my previous role at Ramsey Solutions, um, we were starting to have conversations around me, maybe participating in more of a keynote speaking role or a personality is what they call it there, or writing books or things like that. And one of the conversations that we were actively having with marketing people and things like that is they were like, Alex, like what's.

[00:02:49] Alex Judd: Your frame, like what's your angle? Like, are you a leadership guy or are you a personal growth guy? And I, I always, I was smart enough not to do this, thank God, but I always wanted to be like, I reject that question. Like that is a horrible question because it's like, are you a leadership person or are you a personal growth person?

[00:03:06] Alex Judd: I deeply believe this. If you are not personally growing and deeply attentive to your personal growth, there's no way you're gonna effectively and sustainably lead over the long

[00:03:17] Ben Loy: Hmm. Is it linear? Is this a linear path that people follow?

[00:03:21] Alex Judd: I'm starting to ask myself the question. Is anything linear ever? I guess what I, I start to ask, uh, so, you know, you, you and I, I think one of our great strengths, but maybe one of our great downfalls for both of us is we could be very skeptical and that can be a great strength because it means that we're not just, Absolutely pummeled and and destroyed by the millions of marketing messages we're getting every single day. It can be a great weakness when we just bring our skepticism to everything and we refuse to learn from anything that's already occurred. And one of the things that I've had to really do is recognize there's sometimes where.

[00:03:58] Alex Judd: I, I need to check my skepticism at the door and realize success leaves clues. Like you do not have to make up all of this stuff. And there are certain things, there's patterns, and where there's patterns, there's principles that if we pay attention to it, it's like, man, I, I don't have to go bushwhacking.

[00:04:17] Alex Judd: There's actually a trail and if I follow the trail, it's not gonna be step for step linear, but, but it's a path that I can follow in order to grow.

[00:04:25] Ben Loy: Yeah, I you talk about growing, if you're growing personally, You are probably going to be growing or you'll have the capacity to grow as a leader or professionally in that way. And one of the things that's set a lot in the personal growth space is trust the process, right? Like, I mean, it's huge in fitness, but the idea of there is a process, there is a method behind success and healthy growth.

[00:04:48] Ben Loy: but it takes intentionality to figure out what that is and then to actually trust. The steps in that process to get you where you want to go.

[00:04:55] Alex Judd: wanna go. I think that's so well said, and I think it highlights. Probably one of the, if not the greatest sources of friction that people will experience if they want to grow as a leader and move through the phases that we're about to talk about is self-sabotage.

[00:05:12] Alex Judd: Instead of trusting the process, they abandon the process and leadership growth is very akin. Getting back into working out or running or going to the gym for the first time in that you feel the pain before you see the fruit and, that's why so many people really struggle, I think because we say no pain, no gain.

[00:05:32] Alex Judd: And that principally is true oftentimes, but we think. Pain equals gain at the same time. And it's often pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain gain, right? And most people don't persist or have the patience to wait through the pain, and part of that is they lose hope. That's why the map is so helpful because if you stop believing that the pain that you're currently enduring is gonna create anything good on the other side, like if, if you start losing hope.

[00:06:00] Alex Judd: That there's a next phase. You're like, well, this is just pain for the sake of pain, and you'll hit the eject button every single

[00:06:06] Alex Judd: time

[00:06:07] Ben Loy: That just reminded me of a funny story. Uh, I was backpacking with some friends in Northern California, oh gosh, this is probably like five or six years ago now. Maybe, maybe more, and. there's this lake that we've been working towards for two days or something like that, and we're towards the end.

[00:06:25] Ben Loy: It gets really steep. We'd already gone over two steep passes to get where we were at that moment. And, uh, we were just like trudging uphill. We were tired. And, this woman comes down and she's like, you're almost there. Less than a mile. It was not less than a mile. And we had no way to tell exactly where we were on that trail.

[00:06:50] Ben Loy: There was no way for us to be like, oh yeah, here's a mile marker. You know, I didn't, I didn't have, or I wasn't using my garin at that time. And so I like, didn't really have a good gauge of where that was gonna be and I watched my friend like descend into madness over probably what, what the next like.

[00:07:07] Ben Loy: Two plus miles were of this steep grade because we got to a point where it was like, we have gone well over a mile. This still sucks. And like there is no end in sight. And I mean, yeah, it just, when you're really, when you head's down and you're, you're in the thick of it. If you don't have a good grasp of where you are and where the finish line is or where at least the next checkpoint is, you're gonna get really

[00:07:33] Alex Judd: That's right. And the principle behind that, that we always talk about within our coaching community is effort never sustainably exceeds belief. R uh, I'll never forget the first time I really came face to face with this principal in the most visceral way is I had spent, um, I think it was like seven months training for my second ever Iron Man, right?

[00:07:55] Alex Judd: 140.6 mile race, and had spent seven months training for this race. Had really dialed in working with a coach, my swimming, my biking, and my running. I had way out, trained my previous performance and like was on track to, I think do really, really well. We're, I believe, three to four weeks before the race and a hurricane hits Panama City, Florida, which is where the race is supposed to occur.

[00:08:20] Alex Judd: And, and so, uh, anyone that does triathlon knows that, uh, triathletes are often not the most low maintenance people on the planet. Uh, it seems to come with the gig. Right? And the Facebook group associated with the race was literally freaking out. Like, where's the information? We need the information now.

[00:08:38] Alex Judd: What's happening in the race and all that. And basically Ironman put out a message saying, we are like going down to survey the course and it's probably gonna be another week or two. This is four weeks before the race to figure out, this is literally a a around the time where you're supposed to be peaking in your training and then you're in this holding mode of you wanna preserve all the endurance that you've built up over the course of months.

[00:08:59] Alex Judd: And they're like, right now it's in limbo whether or not the race is going to happen. A and what's crazy is that all occurs and that evening. I, I'm supposed to do, I don't know, it was like, uh, three miles of swimming followed by a run that afternoon. And I just remember I had started to get so much motivation, so much energy, because we're getting closer to the race, and I got into the pool that afternoon.

[00:09:23] Alex Judd: And I was literally just like, what am I even doing? Like, why am I even here? I, I don't even know if this is going to happen. Just like flatlined. And that's where I realized like, you have to believe two things. You have to believe, number one, that the finish line that you're chasing is possible. And number two, you have to believe that it's worth it and that if you're doing the work, it could result.

[00:09:42] Alex Judd: And I think what we're trying to do here in this episode is we're trying to tell people, Hey, your growth as a leader, it's not this ethereal thing. It's not this like mystery of like, I don't know if the race is gonna occur, that finish line's even gonna be there. If you do these things, you do get these results.

[00:09:56] Alex Judd: What I can't guarantee you on is a timeline, but I can guarantee you the process works. And then I, I can absolutely say what you're doing right now, if you're applying yourself to the actions that we're gonna talk about within these stages, it is so worth it. I used to think personal growth was the epitome.

[00:10:12] Alex Judd: I used to think that, man, personal growth, I was a personal growth junkie for years. Right. And there's certainly still some of that in me, right? But. Personal growth doesn't hold a finger to leadership growth. It is just so much more gratifying, so much more fun because your metric for success becomes other people being successful and that, I mean, that is just the most fun adventure you can possibly have.

[00:10:36] Ben Loy: I mean, at that point it's almost an you have an unlimited capacity for where, where that growth can go.

[00:10:42] Alex Judd: can go. That's right. Because you're now, yes. Because you're measuring effectiveness by looking at the effectiveness of other people and, and there's so many inspirational examples out there. Right. You know, that's what I was thinking about this whole time I was reading about the end of leadership book that I was telling you about because it can be a pretty like, uh, cynical book about the leadership industry, but.

[00:11:01] Alex Judd: While it does highlight some of the massive shortfalls of the industry, I can also think of inspirational leaders that are doing things that are 10,000 times bigger than what we are currently doing. And I just look at that. I'm like, and they're doing it well. I look at that, I'm like, that is so inspiring.

[00:11:20] Alex Judd: Like literally what you said, the things that we think of as limits to our leadership growth, we should just drop that word because we clearly have zero understanding of what's possible if we apply ourselves to the

[00:11:32] Ben Loy: Hmm. So what's the first phase?

[00:11:35] Alex Judd: Yeah, so we've actually already kind of hit on it a little bit.

[00:11:38] Alex Judd: The first phase that we all have to engage with, and I guess just to set people up for these phases, um, I believe you cannot skip a phase. I also don't think it's a given that everyone, uh. Attend to each phase in the right way. So I kind of spend some time thinking about these phases and recognizing there's definitely a shadow side to each of these phases.

[00:12:00] Alex Judd: But we're gonna talk primarily about the virtuous side, to have a vision for what it could be. If we wanted or to, we could do another, uh, episode on the shadow side

[00:12:09] Alex Judd: of leadership that the four stages of dissension into Yeah. Narcissism and all of that. Right. But the first, the first phase is individual contributor.

[00:12:19] Alex Judd: And just to already highlight the distinction. the minute you decide that contribution is your aim, that's a leadership decision, and that's why this is, uh, this is on the virtuous side of leadership growth. What would the shadow side be? It would be individual, consumer, right? I, I'm here to consume what is available for me.

[00:12:39] Alex Judd: But what we're really focusing on here in phase one is you showing up as an individual. You don't have any direct reports. You don't have necessarily anyone that's looking at you and saying, man, I am following that person and it's my job to follow that person. You're just showing up as an individual. A lot of times, if we're not careful, we can say, that means I'm not a leader.

[00:13:00] Alex Judd: I would say the minute you decide you're going to contribute, that's when you become a leader.

[00:13:03] Ben Loy: Hmm. So one of the terms I've heard used, and I actually don't even specifically love this term, but it's silent leader. Like I've heard people say, oh, this individual is a really good silent leader. And like I said, I don't, I don't love that term

[00:13:19] Alex Judd: Yeah. Explain to me why you don't

[00:13:20] Ben Loy: I don't love the word silent.

[00:13:22] Ben Loy: I think that like someone who contributes, even if they are just contributing at an individual level, with the right amount of critical thinking and a, and a good dose of wisdom and self-discipline. I don't like the word silent because I think that they can contribute in their opinion and their voice matters regardless of what stage or level they're at in an organization.

[00:13:42] Ben Loy: So that's why I don't like the term silent leader, but I think the the premise is that you're leading by

[00:13:48] Alex Judd: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, I think it can definitely be said that organizations can teach the phrase silent leader as a means of actually building compliant followers, which is a cynical person, or not cynical.

[00:14:00] Alex Judd: You're not cynical, a skeptical person like you, someone with the gift of skepticism looks at that and says, I'm gonna run the other direction for that. Yeah. I, I actually think there's a responsibility associated with contribution that when you have something to say, you should say it but I also think the, maybe.

[00:14:16] Alex Judd: The piece of wisdom that's in that idea of the silent leader is that we all know your actions speak so much dramatically, more than your words ever could. And I think that there is, uh, a scale of how much you should use your words and your assertions to initiate change or to express opinion as you grow in these phases.

[00:14:42] Alex Judd: And I think the person that should probably be. I think all of these phases actually should be very cognizant about how much they're talking because a great leader is really, really intentional about listening. But I often think that an area where we often hijack the process is when we're in the individual contributor role and we try to talk our way out of that, and that's that we have a lot of actions listed here on the outline that we're going through, and it turns out talking is not one of the actions associated with being a really effective individual contributor.

[00:15:14] Ben Loy: Yeah, and I think, I mean, you even mentioned skepticism or, or cynicism. I think skepticism can definitely lead to cynicism, but I think it, it is a, it is a matter of your heart and your attitude and your motive for why you're speaking, why you're being skeptical, like are you interested? In the growth and the health of an organization.

[00:15:35] Ben Loy: And so you're speaking into that with a critical eye in a way that's like, Hey, I want the people around me and myself to thrive in this organization towards the mission of why we exist. Or are we being divisive? I just started a leadership class last night, that you're also a part of and we were reading through Titus and in Titus 3 it talks about that like a divisive spirit, and it really gets to the idea of, okay, is this individual bringing up or, criticizing for the purpose of.

[00:16:08] Ben Loy: The body and the furthering of the gospel, or is this person like filled with a divisive spirit and are they cynical? Just for the sake of being

[00:16:18] Ben Loy: cynical?

[00:16:19] Alex Judd: And, and we will hit on this in later phases, but, uh, you know, certainly if you're an owner of an organization or a leader of a department or a pastor of a church, part of, uh, your goal is to create a culture or an environment, uh, where individual contributors are encouraged to be.

[00:16:41] Alex Judd: not critical, but curious. And part of that demands teaching because a lot of times individual contributors, I mean, let's be real, a lot of times individual contributors are in their twenties, right? And they come in and they haven't been taught, like, they just think like, oh, a part of why I'm hired is to point out things that are wrong that could be better.

[00:16:58] Alex Judd: And turns out that's not a great strategy for building influence in an organization. Like people don't respond too well. And so as a leader you get to shape and develop and invest in that person and say like, Hey. The goal in coming here, you have so much opportunity in front of you. You can make such a difference here.

[00:17:13] Alex Judd: You can make such an impact. And I really believe in your perspective, you've got fresh eyes right now that none of us have because we've all been here for a while. We are old, right? And you've got this fresh eyes. Approach it with curiosity because I want to see you win and that's gonna be the path towards you winning.

[00:17:28] Alex Judd: And so, uh, in some ways it's the, the responsibility of the later phases of leadership to create the environment in which the individual contributor can be successful.

[00:17:38] Ben Loy: Hmm. so when you go to bootcamp in the Coast Guard, and I don't know if they still give this talk, but when I was in bootcamp, you show up, you get off the bus, you go upstairs, people are yelling at you, you know, you put all, you put all your personal belongings into a bag and that they throw in a closet for the next eight weeks.

[00:17:54] Ben Loy: And like you are at that point, a number and, uh, a unit, and a part of a greater body. And like that is your identity. And so. Um, one of the things that they, they talk about, and it's the very first talk that you get, is followership and the idea of followership and the concept is. Uh, this is a really big thing in the military, but it's like a good leader also knows how to follow well and follow other leaders well.

[00:18:20] Ben Loy: Um, and I think the premise is good. I actually pulled up the definition, the Coast Guard's definition of followership. So the followership role encompasses initiative, commitment, responsibility, accountability, critical thinking,

[00:18:34] Ben Loy: and effective communications. And I think. Whether or not the Coast Guard actually carries that out well, across their culture, uh, is a different story and I think a different conversation.

[00:18:45] Ben Loy: But the premise I think is really good. And I think what's so important in that area is they encompass initiative, commitment, responsibility, and accountability. But then critical thinking and effective communications, I think is often. An oversight for people. Uh, and I think that sometimes that's when people can fall from skepticism or a healthy, healthy mindset on critical thinking to cynicism.

[00:19:11] Ben Loy: Um, and it often, I think the transition in that is in the way that they communicate.

[00:19:15] Alex Judd: Yeah. One of the things as you say that that stands out to me is if you spend any time talking to leaders that have a great deal of influence that are probably further along on the map that we're walking through here, and you ask them about the, um.

[00:19:32] Alex Judd: times or stages or periods of their life where their leadership style was formed, right?

[00:19:37] Alex Judd: Where they really gained the competencies and the character and the convictions that we now experience as creating all this impact and influence. What's crazy is all, almost any time you ask a really effective leader about where they were formed. It was in their individual contributor

[00:19:52] Alex Judd: stage. And it was like them do, I mean, I think Elon, Elon Musk literally talked about the building of his companies, like the first five years is eating glass, right?

[00:20:01] Alex Judd: And it's like, which I would say, but we could probably have a little bit of a better attitude and, and don't have to describe it that way, but what, uh, you know, that's where I think. it is crazy how susceptible we are to saying, man, I, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be in the individual contributor role.

[00:20:17] Alex Judd: 'cause I, I wanna have, I, I could do so much more if I just had direct reports and if I, I, if I just had more resources and if I was just given a little bit more authority. But what's crazy is if you do teleport to one of the later phases, you literally hijack the development that you need to actually handle that influence.

[00:20:38] Alex Judd: Well, and and so what I would say is you're going to have to individually contribute. Sorry, right? Like that's part of the gig and It's either we're going to be humble or be humbled. And what's so cool is the minute you say, man, this is where I'm at right now and I'm just gonna own this stage and I'm gonna make this a Clay Scroggins is an author that I really love.

[00:21:00] Alex Judd: He said, create your oasis of excellence. Like I, I'm just gonna be so good in the area that I've given, been given to contribute, like you're already leading at that point. And, uh, not only are you operating in the best interest of other people, you are a hundred percent operating in the best interest of yourself.

[00:21:20] Ben Loy: I, I mean, I think you, you hit the nail on the head. I think the importance of the individual contributor role is character development, and I think that if you you know, segue your way through that role and into higher leadership positions without having developed.

[00:21:37] Ben Loy: Personally and developed your own character. It's just not, you're not going to stand up to the pressures that exist at a higher

[00:21:44] Alex Judd: That's right. And and we should highlight too, that as we're talking about leadership development, we're talking about phases. I almost don't love that language because phases can say, oh, that was a phase I went through and now, now I'm a leader, so I don't have to individually contribute anymore.

[00:21:59] Alex Judd: Yeah. Obviously we can all see, we can all on our face see the stupidity of that. What's crazy is. weak and very much full for that. We, we may not say, oh, I no longer have to individually contribute, but we can act that way. And, and so what I would say is you have to be, as you walk through these phases, you have to intentionally and deliberately carve out time to go back.

[00:22:21] Alex Judd: Go to places, go to things where you, you show up and you say, I'm just happy to be here. I'm here to learn. I'm here to grow. I'm here to contribute. I'm not here as an expert. I'm not here as a person to tell people what to do. And maybe that's in your company, maybe that's at a volunteer event associate with your church.

[00:22:38] Alex Judd: Maybe it's something else. Right. But it's you putting on the hat of student again and saying, I'm just here to contribute. I think it's, it's so good for so many reasons. That we go, uh, go back to the beginning regularly.

[00:22:52] Ben Loy: Yeah. It makes me think of like a four story building and contributor isn't a checklist that you fill out and then you close your binder and you throw it in the closet and you never think about it again.

[00:23:03] Ben Loy: Like

[00:23:03] Alex Judd: That's the, that's the equivalence of wiping out the first story of the building.

[00:23:06] Ben Loy: Yeah. It's the foundation, right? Like, and, and even like a four story building without an elevator like stairs. Like, you need to, you need to be consistently walking through those four levels regardless of what level you're, you're sitting at at that time.

[00:23:18] Ben Loy: Right. Um, and revisiting the, the things that you learn in that season and even learning new things. Yeah. So,

[00:23:26] Alex Judd: And, and so if we're looking at this from a Christian perspective, I like thinking about what are the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control.

[00:23:37] Alex Judd: I mean, you can think of evidence of why every single one of those is required to do this phase. Well. You know, a couple that I would hit home on are faithfulness. I think is the New England Patriots, right? Like probably the most predominant dynasty, the chiefs are probably gonna give them a run for their money.

[00:23:55] Alex Judd: But the most predominant dynasty of our lifetime in the NFL and I, I believe it was the Patriots, the, the thing that was on the wall in their locker room was, do your job right? It's like, how do you win so many Super Bowls back to back? Just do your job. Right? And that's individual contributor language, right?

[00:24:12] Alex Judd: So faithfulness, know your job, do your job, maximize your job. Self-control. Right? I, I think a lot of times if we're not careful from a Christian perspective, we say, let go and let God, and it's like, well, it turns out there's some things God gave to you and he's saying, I am. I want you to steward the things that are, again, under your sphere of influence right now.

[00:24:34] Alex Judd: So how are you doing in the things you have been given? Because he who can be trusted with little, can be trusted with much. And then the fruit of the spirit that applies to every single one that we're gonna walk through is patience, right? The willingness to wait, the willingness to trust the process, the willingness to endure pain for a worthwhile goal or journey.

[00:24:52] Alex Judd: that's certainly required in the individual contributor

[00:24:55] Ben Loy: Yeah.

[00:24:56] Alex Judd: so we start with individual contributor and, and you know, we've said trust the process. I actually think that. The process is that if you exercise self-control patient's diligence, steadfastness, which is to be fixed in a direction, right?

[00:25:11] Alex Judd: If you exercise all of those things in an individual contributor spa stage, what you'll look up with I is you'll eventually. Get direct influence. And what I mean by direct influence is you will look up and you will have people that either just because you made such an impact on them or literally by job title, they report to you and they are following you and, and you know, let's talk about this transition between the two.

[00:25:37] Alex Judd: Who do people sustainably follow in a way that's actually life giving and healthy? People they admire. It's why the individual contributor stage is so crucial is because that's you becoming a person that other people could say, man, I actually wanna be like that person. Because people know you become like what you follow.

[00:25:58] Alex Judd: And if you're a slob that is inconsistent and non-committal and can't stick to anything, doesn't follow through on anything, doesn't finish anything, talks, were way more than they act. Are people gonna follow you? No. Why? Because they don't wanna be like you. Right? And so be someone that's worth following, and then don't be surprised when you look up and it's like, wow, I've got actual direct influence here.

[00:26:21] Ben Loy: Hmm. What are some. practical or tangible examples of what that phase looks like.

[00:26:28] Alex Judd: Yeah. And let's also talk about what it doesn't look like. Yeah. Right? So, practical and tangible. Uh. Actions you can take if you're in the direct influence phase. Um, managing people really, really well. I, I think it's such a shame that we live in this unique period of time where people say, I don't want, I don't want managers, I want leaders.

[00:26:50] Alex Judd: And it's like, well, your organization's gonna be incredibly disorganized and it's ultimately gonna collapse in on itself. Right? Obviously, I believe in the power and the validity of. Good, positive, healthy, life-giving leadership, and I, think it's so important, but man, leaders that are effective and sustainable in their impact are always supported by really incredible managers.

[00:27:13] Alex Judd: And so what's actually going on there is people don't understand what Good management actually is, right? But it's helping people sustain progress on the goals that we're working towards, right? It's helping people do their job well is management. And so, uh, accountability is really important at the direct influence stage because we've gotta be the type of person that.

[00:27:34] Alex Judd: Number one, if you wanna hold accountable, you've gotta be held accountable. So are you being held accountable? But then can you apply accountability to other people in a way that they don't dislike you in the process? That's actually really, uh, that's a skill, um, because it can be hard to do, especially because so many of the people that you're working with today have toxic mixed up experiences with accountability in the past.

[00:27:56] Alex Judd: So you're not just starting at neutral, you're starting probably behind the eight ball in some ways and having to work your way back. And that's why the soft skills are so important. The ability to make a good first impression, the ability to look someone in the eye and have a really, really intentional conversation with them.

[00:28:12] Alex Judd: The ability to ask curious questions of people, the ability to listen well. These are all quote unquote soft skills that create hard results. And if you're going to do direct influence, well, you're gonna have to get really good at the soft skills. Because if you don't do that, you're going to fall for the shadow side of phase two.

[00:28:32] Alex Judd: And the shadow side of phase two is direct control, is how I would think about it. and so we can go more into that if we would like to, but those are the practices and the actions that I would focus on for the second phase.

[00:28:45] Ben Loy: Yeah. How do you find accountability or create accountability if you don't already have

[00:28:51] Ben Loy: it?

[00:28:51] Alex Judd: Great question that we, we have done entire episodes on in the past, and we should probably do another one now that we're here on the video channel. I would say first make sure you have a healthy understanding of what accountability is and why it exists. Accountability. The definition of accountability is to give account for something.

[00:29:14] Alex Judd: Right. What is accountability not, and this is the lesson that I unfortunately had to learn the hard way because I did it wrong. Accountability is not to punish people for doing something wrong or, or to catch people doing something wrong and then punishing them. That's not accountability. That's not what it is.

[00:29:31] Alex Judd: And, Punishment actually probably doesn't belong under the umbrella of accountability at all. Because healthy accountability is always rhythmic. So it's not like this surprise thing where it's like, oh gosh, I didn't know they were gonna come check on whether I'm doing my job or not. Right? it's always rewarding.

[00:29:48] Alex Judd: So it's not just when things are going bad, it's also when things are going well. So it's accountability isn't just exercise in the reds and yellows, it's also exercise in the green by saying, great job. I wanna recognize you for that. But then it's also restorative, right? So accountability is always focused more on what we are for than what we're against.

[00:30:07] Alex Judd: It's not saying you're doing such a bad job right now, and I brought you in here to meet with you so that I could detail on the whiteboard how bad of a job you're doing. It's to ask the question, Hey, what do we want to be true about your performance in this area and how could we work together to get there?

[00:30:23] Alex Judd: Right? Is is what accountability really is, but what you have to do to your question is you have to. Reestablish for yourself. What is healthy accountability? And then you're going to have to teach and train that to others. I, I mean, we have seen so many times in coaching relationships where one of the first things that we do within installing the path for growth fundamentals into businesses around the country is we help people set up one-on-one rhythms, within their organization so they can red, yellow, green, the areas that matter most, right?

[00:30:52] Alex Judd: That's basic accountability implementation that we help people with in our coaching program. And, it is wild. A lot of leaders, if they have not done this. They experience a high degree of resistance from their people because if you go from having zero one-on-one meetings and never using the word accountability, and then suddenly your messaging, I don't know, the administrative support staff on your team and saying, Hey, I was hoping we can have a 30 minute one-on-one meeting.

[00:31:19] Alex Judd: Once a week to focus on your job performance and how you're doing compared to the goals we set out for you. They read that and literally the words they see in that email are, you are losing your job. Right. It's what they

[00:31:31] Ben Loy: or you're not doing it well enough that like, we need, we need more

[00:31:35] Alex Judd: Exactly. And they freak out. Right. And, and, and I can't blame them for thinking that, because most organizations, that's what that email means. Yeah. And, and so you have to just ensure people like. You know, make sure you're not saying this if it's not true, but say like, Hey, you are crushing it right now.

[00:31:51] Alex Judd: Like, you're doing so well. I'm, I'm so proud of you. And one of the things that I'm learning as a leader is that one of the ways I can help serve you is by making sure the path to you doing your job and un goes through you understanding what winning looks like in your role and us communicating openly about that.

[00:32:09] Alex Judd: And so that's all this is about and, and really. Uh, the goal is not for you to lose your job. The goal is just to make it easier for you to do your

[00:32:17] Ben Loy: job. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:18] Alex Judd: Um, and, and. You can say that they will still hear you're losing your job, but then you prove it out in your actions. You have a few one-on-ones, and then, I mean, we see it.

[00:32:28] Alex Judd: We, I've actually had examples of this where team members literally say like, I was resistant to this. At first, I didn't know what we were gonna do. It felt like a waste of time. You know, I was a little bit concerned about what you were looking into within my role and stuff like that, but now it's one of my favorite parts of the week, right?

[00:32:45] Alex Judd: I've seen that transition happen, and it happens through the doing.

[00:32:48] Ben Loy: Yeah, and I mean, we, we have a one-on-one every week, right? Like that you practice what you preach

[00:32:53] Ben Loy: in that way. And I think one of the things that I really valued in that is you're really adamant about emphasizing like we are, we are red, yellow greening your role and the things that need to be done within your role.

[00:33:06] Ben Loy: We're not red, yellow greening you. Like if, if an area specifically is yellow, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are yellow. Like it is not an identity attached to this. And I think. Creating that separation. it reorients the, the way that meeting is perceived because then it's, oh, like we are all in this together in a way that we want the business to succeed.

[00:33:30] Ben Loy: And we're just keeping tabs on like, is the business succeeding in all the areas that it needs to, to continue to make steps forward? That's right. Um, and then, yeah.

[00:33:40] Alex Judd: we're putting the results on the table. Yeah. And we are having a really smart, intelligent, healthy conversation about what we both see with those results. Yeah. That's why I'm so excited about our operationalized sprint that's coming up on the 22nd of October is because.

[00:33:57] Alex Judd: I mean, that's gonna be the deepest dive we've ever done with a group of people on this topic of operationalizing your business. And, uh, there are two parts of the operationalized process that are directly related to what we're talking about here with direct influence, standardize, absolutely applicable, and then evaluate.

[00:34:16] Alex Judd: You cannot hold people accountable to standards that you haven't clarified. Right. That is, uh, that you know. That is not leadership, right? That is called reacting, uh, to things you don't like. but then conversely, a lot of times we are not trained on how to properly evaluate results with other people in a way that actually helps them win.

[00:34:37] Alex Judd: Uh, and, and so that's what we're gonna spend a lot of time in on the 22nd. So I would encourage leaders listening to this, if you're interested in joining us. It's gonna be a, full day deep dive teaching that our team put together on standardize document, evaluate, improve, and how that applies to your roles, your projects, your meetings.

[00:34:54] Alex Judd: Um, but it, I think the, really, the whole playbook of operationalizing.

[00:34:59] Alex Judd: One of the skills that fits into the direct influence phase that if you can get decent at that, you don't have to be a master at it to, to do direct influence. Well, but you do need to be decent on it because if you can be decent on it, then you can also delegate some of the nuances of it to other people on your team.

[00:35:17] Alex Judd: And that's also part of direct influence is effectively delegating,

[00:35:21] Ben Loy: on delegation.

[00:35:22] Ben Loy: I feel like. It's talked about a lot. I feel like it's also an area, leaders struggle a lot and for different reasons. I think some leaders and a lot of leaders hold things so tightly that they have a really hard time delegating in a way that is healthy and effective.

[00:35:39] Ben Loy: And then you also have the people who like over delegate, which I think is less common, but also a potential pitfall. Right. Um. Yeah. What does healthy delegation look like and how can someone, if they need to take steps towards delegating more?

[00:35:58] Alex Judd: Yeah, well, you're hitting on the shadow side of phase two, right?

[00:36:01] Alex Judd: Because we said phase two is direct influence, right? You have people that are in your sphere of influence, that you are clarified as you are responsible for leading these people, and you're meeting with them regularly. You're coinciding with them, you know them, right? The, the shadow side is direct control, right?

[00:36:17] Alex Judd: And, and so it's the micromanager, it's the command and control. It's the person that errs on the side of distrust instead of trust and, Right. That's the person that fails at delegating well because they never actually delegate anything. It, I mean, we have all seen that person and, and unfortunately probably most of us have been that person that, you know, the classic delegation illustration that's used by leadership teachers is the, uh, the Olympian that hands off the baton and uh, and.

[00:36:48] Alex Judd: Successfully runs at the pace of the other person. The other person starts running, the handoff occurs and, and then the other person goes and is running even faster than the person before them because they're on a full tank of gas. Right. That's the illustration we used. First of all, I like to break it down a little bit, be like, listen, none of us are Olympians here, so let's just.

[00:37:08] Alex Judd: Clarify that real quick. Let's be a little bit more humble than that, but we're running and instead of handing off and it's like we're both gonna run the same speed, like we both get running the same speed, but then we never actually let go, right? We just both hang onto the baton and we're like, I'm gonna finish with you 'cause I can't let this go.

[00:37:24] Alex Judd: That's what so many of us do, and it, what does it do? It slows both of us down and there's a pretty high likelihood that one of us is going to trip, which causes both of us to trip. That's what often happens, right? And, and so. Again, what we already talked about is necessary for healthy delegation to occur is patience and process and, and also I think where leaders get most tripped up is they think that proper delegation occurs at the level of how and in reality, the best delegation occurs at the level of why and what.

[00:38:00] Alex Judd: Right? I'm gonna clarify why we're doing what we're doing. I'm gonna clarify what we want to accomplish. Out of that, I'm gonna let you run, run with it. Um, a good example of this is we, we just kind of ideated and, and you know, I was kind of praying about it and we had a vision for, we're gonna actually have an optional worship service at our Austin experience on long game leadership coming up.

[00:38:21] Alex Judd: And I think it's gonna be a sunrise worship service. It's gonna be really beautiful And, What my role in that as the leader is, is I was literally doing this before we hit record on this episode, is I was writing success statements for what that hour will look like and what my vision for that hour is.

[00:38:38] Alex Judd: And I was offer also offering just a little bit of a proposed agenda. And then I will, uh, give that to Michelle who's producing the experience and running point and. How she will literally, I probably will not hear about that document or the how associated with that document until maybe the week before.

[00:38:56] Alex Judd: She'll share with me the plan that she's got and then we'll do it. And, and why is that possible? Because Michelle understands our values. She knows the mission. She's deeply embedded in our culture. She's incredibly smart and, and this is an area of her gifting. That. It's like all I have to do is make sure the expectations that I have in my head that I know I'm going to care about are on paper.

[00:39:19] Alex Judd: Give those to her and then let her run with it. And then it's such a gift that we show up in a worship service happens. Praise God. Because if we left that on me, I mean, yeah, it might happen, but the quality probably wouldn't be as good.

[00:39:30] Ben Loy: Michelle is a logistics

[00:39:32] Alex Judd: She a logistics rock star. Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:35] Alex Judd: Yeah, I don't know why we think we need to help logistics, rock stars with logistics. Some and, and it is hard, right? I am far from perfect, and Michelle could tell you that I'm far from perfect because sometimes I start asking her questions in our one-on-one, and she literally asks me, do you really

[00:39:51] Ben Loy: to know

[00:39:51] Alex Judd: that?

[00:39:51] Alex Judd: Right. Like ask me and ask me the same question, right? Like, they're like, I know you're asking this. Do you really want to get into this? 'cause I can pull up the spreadsheets if you want to. I'm like, no, I don't want to know that. Yeah, that's, and so, you know, we have to equip our people to support challenge, but then we also have to understand our boundaries and our gifting and trust other people to operate in their gifting as

[00:40:11] Alex Judd: well,

[00:40:12] Ben Loy: So I think one of the things. With delegation. And if you're delegating well, like we've talked a lot about direct influence, I think at a certain point it can turn into more indirect influence, which is the next phase. when does that transition happen? What, what is the difference? Um, and then also how do you navigate an approach, indirect influence versus direct

[00:40:33] Alex Judd: I,

[00:40:33] Alex Judd: I, you know, I, I think we're talking about these in a very smooth and fluid way. I, I, the. Transition periods between these two, I think leaders often experience as extremely tumultuous. because especially if you are really good at being an individual contributor, it's really difficult and, you know, maybe you're more sanctified than I am, but it's really difficult to not attach some of your identity to that.

[00:40:59] Alex Judd: And then, and by the grace of God, you're transitioning to the next phase, which is direct influence. And now you're working on seeing other people succeed. And because you've probably made the mistake of. attributing some of your identity to individual contributor, you're, you feel like you're losing some of your identity.

[00:41:18] Alex Judd: So in some ways, like, I think God uses this process to help us break down our idols that we oftentimes fall for. And from direct influence to indirect influence, what we're really talking about here. Is we are no longer talking about you being the person that these people are directly reporting to, or that they even know the best for them to be able to succeed and do their job.

[00:41:43] Alex Judd: And therefore, like anytime you go from individual contributor to direct influence, you're already, if you're doing it right, you're probably giving less credit for the work that you do. If you do direct to indirect, well, you are now getting the least credit you've ever gotten for probably doing more work and, and certainly harder work.

[00:42:00] Alex Judd: And, and a lot of people, that's where they tap out. They say, what the heck? I don't get any credit. So they either deviate to the shadow side, right, which is indirect control, or you know, which is they find a way to make sure all credit somehow comes back to them, or they just say, I'm just gonna stick in my beautiful direct influence bubble.

[00:42:18] Alex Judd: So I, I guess, and we can go deeper into it if you would like to, but that, that's what I would really highlight for people is these transitions. It, it will feel like a part of you is changing. What I actually think is happening here is you are getting more to who you actually are, and the goal is to minister or to lead out of who that person is.

[00:42:41] Ben Loy: Yeah. I mean, if we're, if we're leaning a little bit into the vulnerability side, like I think that, like I personally floated in the.

[00:42:50] Ben Loy: individual contributor

[00:42:51] Ben Loy: space, probably way longer than I should have or needed to. And I think part of that was, having multiple careers and stops and starts that, or transition periods and, and I think even some, uh, maybe just confusion in, in the direction I wanted my life to go.

[00:43:07] Ben Loy: But then what is interesting is like after years pivoting into a role where I'm more focused on others, like I am. I am so much more a, in my own personal life fulfilled than I was in those seasons. And on the flip side, like so much more motivated and inspired the, the farther that goes. And so I, I think you spoke to it a lot.

[00:43:28] Ben Loy: I think some people, whether it's from a desire to, get the praise and the accolades for what they're doing or, or any other multitude of reasons. I think that people often pigeonhole themselves in a spot that's comfortable once they find it for them as an individual instead of expanding their idea of, of what is possible if they were to grow as a leader.

[00:43:53] Alex Judd: Yeah, I, I think one of two things often happens, um, either, uh, people grew up in a home that was, there was a recognition deficit. They were never recognized or affirmed for anything, so therefore they. they don't just want, they hunger and long for, and feel a need for outside approval from others because they never got it growing up or they grew up in a home that was maybe, Much heavier on recognition, probably over indexing that like, Hey, we give you attention and incentives and a pat on the back, uh, every time you do something good. The thing that we reward in our household is positive action taken, right? We don't reward just who you are, you get attention for the things that you do.

[00:44:46] Alex Judd: And what's crazy is, man, I, I have seen this play out.

[00:44:52] Alex Judd: I think sometimes people literally start their companies to fill one of those two gaps, right? That they lacked approval. So I'm gonna build a company 'cause I, I can build a machine that gives me approval or I have this need that I, get approved for the things that I do.

[00:45:09] Alex Judd: So I have to do a bunch of things so that I can continue to keep my approval bucket full. And, that that's not a sustainable model. It's not what leadership is for, it's not what leadership actually is, is, you know, going out and seeking the approval of others. And so it eventually falls in on itself.

[00:45:27] Alex Judd: Now, the only reason why I can say this is because there was some of that in me. What's, what's. Good to know though, is that man, there are never fully pure motives for why we do anything. But God can absolutely sanctify your motives and say, Hey, you thought you were starting this company for these reasons, but I'm, I'm going to redeem this and teach you where your identity actually comes from, and then you're gonna start operating out of that place and.

[00:45:56] Alex Judd: Everything about your leadership style, affect, uh, composure, posture changes whenever you start to have that paradigm

[00:46:04] Alex Judd: shift.

[00:46:05] Ben Loy: I think something you just spoken into communicates a lot about overflow, and when you're rooted in, or you're motivated by. Maybe a wound or an area that you feel like you are lacking, that's not sustainable, right? but God and his grace often I think brings us around to or redeems the decisions that we make,

[00:46:30] Ben Loy: Um, for his glory and for our benefit. And, oftentimes that can lead to working from a position of overflow, which is the last phase. can you share a little bit more about that?

[00:46:42] Alex Judd: Yeah, so it's individual contributor, direct influence, indirect influence, and then we, we reach the posture of overflow.

[00:46:49] Alex Judd: When I think of overflow, I think of a sage. I think of a mentor and you know, who do we want to mentor us? The people that have been where we currently are. Another reason why it's so crucial that you trust the process and walk through the phases. I, I, it's, it's wild. We live in a time where I think maybe it has never been more.

[00:47:12] Alex Judd: desired by people to be the one giving advice. Like we live in the age of advice in so many ways, and, we live in the age where people want to present themself as authority expert, sage mentor. And it's also easier than ever to charge for those services to charge for your advice. That's why a path for growth.

[00:47:31] Alex Judd: Like I, I constantly, uh, like I I have not done all of this yet. Right. And we have not done all of this yet. We have done some of this. I'm a business owner. We've built a business over the course of the past five years that is now self-sustaining and operationalized and working in and through other people.

[00:47:46] Alex Judd: We have an incredible community of impact driven leaders. So there's some stuff that we have done, but I still very much feel myself as daily having to attend to my individual contributor responsibilities, my direct influence responsibilities, and my indirect influence responsibilities. I have not reached this stage of my life where I'm like, well, now I'm in the overflow and all I do is give advice to people.

[00:48:07] Alex Judd: Right. And I don't anticipate that's gonna come anytime. Soon. And I praise God for that 'cause I'm having too much fun right now. Right. But I, I, I would say like we do eventually reach a stage and I can think of people that are later in their career, that are later in their life that, that, uh, they're now operating out of the overflow of, they've done all of those things so well.

[00:48:29] Alex Judd: But they've also made a ton of mistakes that they reflected upon and learned from over time that now they're operating outta the overflow and, and it's just. Helping people learn from their wisdom and their experience. Right. What is wisdom? Tim Keller defines it as competence with regard to the realities of life, and in order to have competence with regard to the realities of life.

[00:48:53] Alex Judd: It's helpful if you've lived some life. And so, uh.

[00:48:57] Alex Judd: I,

[00:48:57] Alex Judd: I would just encourage people not to hijack the process by trying to get in the overflow phase too early, but then also when you're in the overflow phase. Uh, understand that that's the phase that you're in, and learn the skills of how to maximize that.

[00:49:13] Alex Judd: Well. 'cause I I also see a lot of people that it's like, dude, you should be operating in the overflow, but you're acting like a 30-year-old that's actually 65 and that's not good. Right. You're, you're trying to go back to your individual contributor phase and it would be way better if you empowered other people to do that.

[00:49:29] Ben Loy: how does experience differ from knowledge and like you talk about people wanting to accelerate themselves into the overflow stage? Yeah, I think often what that looks like is probably just a, a massive intake of information and then. Very little actual application and experience applying the things that they know at a head level,

[00:49:57] Alex Judd: Prior to what I do now owning this business that coaches, leaders and business owners, I was a coach, uh, for a company. Um, and we coached business owners and, man, people would ask these questions about these challenging people problems or these financial decisions or, or, or just many of the like, tough realities of owning a business and, I always had such a perfect answer for them. Like it was always so perfect. I was like, oh, I got three easy steps for that. It is so easy, like you gotta do number one, number two, number three. I was like, we can get this wrapped up real quick. And uh, I, I was a very black and white thinker that had knowledge associated with leadership and business ownership, but not yet the experience.

[00:50:40] Alex Judd: And so I didn't understand at that time that business ownership, business leadership is so gray. And, uh, I didn't have empathy for what the actual carrying out of these difficult conversations and decisions and, and the ramifications of all of it and the weight of all of it, and the responsibility. I didn't have empathy for all of that, right?

[00:51:01] Alex Judd: And so I could just look at, uh, you know, a page in a book and reference that and be like, well, you should just do what this says. And, and now I just think I'm way more empathetic. It's not like the knowledge even necessarily changes. But the delivery of the knowledge dramatically changes and, and because now I can be like, oh gosh, that's so tough.

[00:51:20] Alex Judd: I've been there before. In some ways it's not exactly your situation, but this is where I face this. And I think it's actually, I'm much more effective at inspiring people to take action now because the way I communicate holds more credibility because of some of the. The challenges that we've had to walk through.

[00:51:40] Alex Judd: I'm not speaking about what a book said about what it's like when a key leader on your team leaves and you have to rally people around a vision from the future for what the future looks like. So they don't all leave as well. I, I'm not referencing a book. I'm like, Hey, I've been there and that is tough, right?

[00:51:58] Alex Judd: It's really difficult. Let's talk through this, um, figure out what your direct situation is, and then talk about what the path forward looks like, you know?

[00:52:07] Ben Loy: Yeah, and there is just a different, even internally, I feel like when I'm speaking from experience, because I have like lived through something and I know that.

[00:52:16] Ben Loy: That God took me through it and the lessons that I learned along the way, and I'm, I'm speaking into someone else from that experience, there's a different weight that is held, like even internally in those moments that you just don't have when you're sharing some framework or, or piece of advice or a story that you heard from a third party.

[00:52:37] Alex Judd: That's right. So I, I would tell people, you know, if you've got this vision for the future, where maybe down the road you're, you're operating in overflow and you've got these big dreams that you, you are often compelled to look up at and, and like stare at, I would say don't stare, just glance. Right. Just glance at what that future could be of the type of man or woman, the type of leader, the type of community member that you wanna be, that pillar of your community that people can come to and truly benefit from the overflow of what they've done.

[00:53:07] Alex Judd: Don't stare at it. Just glance and then. Put your eyes back on what you're doing right now and get back

[00:53:12] Alex Judd: to work, right? In some ways, that can be your Iron Man finish line that we talked about, or the top of the mountain that we talked about that you're reaching towards. It's worth it and it's possible is what we're telling you here, but, but man, don't spend too much time dwelling on that.

[00:53:26] Alex Judd: Like get back to work and focus on what God has given you to faithfully do today.

[00:53:30] Ben Loy: Hmm. Alright, last question. If there was. One thing that needed to be consistent in a leader across all four of these phases throughout their life and their, their leadership, uh, what would it be?

[00:53:43] Alex Judd: the, the word that comes to mind for me is faithfulness. Um, and, and like, what is faithfulness in this context? It's your core motivation being to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself because I, I actually think unfortunately you can do these things without that.

[00:54:07] Alex Judd: It just won't bear any good fruit long term, and, and the only way to do these things in a way that actually bears good fruit. Is to do them faithfully and to be motivated by the right things. So the thing that you're motivated by is not to traverse from individual contributors to direct influence. The thing that you're motivated by is not to even just make this like grander impact where you're building your kingdom, right?

[00:54:32] Alex Judd: The thing that you're motivated by is, man, I, I get to show up every single day.

[00:54:36] Alex Judd: My primary job description is glorify God and love and serve other people, and this is just the stage that he's given me to do that in here today. So I'm gonna do it faithfully.

[00:54:48] Alex Judd: Thanks, Ben.

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