4 Books to Grow Your Wisdom
She goes and she's presenting to the board. Our numbers have beat expectations. We're crushing it. There's so much opportunity. And she leaves that room thinking, oh, man.
Matt Aiken:That went so well. They were thrilled. They can't wait to have me back. But she was walking through the hallways after the meeting with her leader, and her leader kindly pointed out that she said a lot, that her speech patterns weren't as fluid as you would expect of someone presenting to a CEO and a board of directors and offered her coaching. Hey.
Matt Aiken:Why don't we get you some coaching on your communication style? And and Kim goes, oh, no. No. No. I'm good.
Matt Aiken:I I don't need that. That's no problem. Her leader looks at her and says, okay, Kim. I see that I'm going to have to be very direct with you. When you say you sound stupid.
Matt Aiken:And I remember reading that line and be like,
Matt Aiken:woah, that is a little uncomfortable.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. And then she proceeds, and I know that you're not. You're an incredibly smart and gifted individual, and I don't want people to perceive you as stupid just because you say I'm a lot when you present.
Alex Judd:Okay. So we're helping leaders build healthy, growing, profitable business that isn't dependent on the owner to make a positive impact. And certainly, if you wanna build a growing business, one thing that you should probably focus on doing is grow yourself. Right? As a leader, you need to be a person that's growing, and there are a multitude of ways that we can grow.
Alex Judd:But one aspect of growth that we know to be true is just exposure to new ideas, new concepts, new frameworks, and mental models for thinking about the way that you, work and lead and own a business. And, obviously, that happens, through reading. And reading just, I think, increases our thoughtfulness. It gives us new perspective, and and it grows our wisdom and causes us to ask better questions. And if we ask better questions, we get better results.
Alex Judd:So so, Matt, you're an avid reader. You've been an avid reader for a long time. Did you always like reading?
Matt Aiken:Always. Since fifth grade.
Alex Judd:Okay.
Matt Aiken:The only year I was homeschooled when my mom was like, hey, here you go. Here's some books. This is your homeschool teacher. And so ever since then, I've been reading like crazy.
Alex Judd:Okay. Very good. And and so what we asked you to do is as a CEO yourself, but also as someone that coaches CEOs and leaders, You know, you kinda said, I'm I'm just gonna write down what are five books and what are the five kinda critical, high value insights that I got from each of these books. And we just thought it would be good to man, let's unpack these insights from each of the books, and and then let's talk about how they apply to business owners and business leaders. So I'm gonna defer to you.
Alex Judd:Where do you wanna start?
Matt Aiken:Yeah. I think, if you've been a listener pod listener to the pod for a while, you've heard me reference this before. It's, Annie Duke's book, thinking in bets.
Alex Judd:Okay. And what is Annie Duke's background?
Matt Aiken:She's a po she's a professional poker player.
Alex Judd:Okay. Kyle, have you read this book? No. No? Okay.
Alex Judd:And were you reading this book for the purposes of poker, or were you reading it just for through the lens of leadership?
Matt Aiken:I am a terrible poker player, so I shot I probably should have. But no, she she has taken her her skills in that arena and applied it, specifically for the purposes of business decision making and evaluation.
Alex Judd:Okay. So what's the what's the key insight that would be good for us to discuss?
Matt Aiken:We should not evaluate decisions based on the outcomes we got from those decisions. So the poker analogy being the worst hand in poker is a two seven off suit. So if you're playing Texas hold them and you have a two and a seven and they're not the same suit, that's the worst hand in poker. It's the lowest likelihood of you winning the hand as the hand progresses. And so we we talk she's the example like, well, if if I go all in, put all my chips in the middle on a two seven hand and then I win, was that a good decision?
Matt Aiken:And the answer obviously is no. You had the lowest likelihood of winning, but you won. And so often we are biased towards I gotta win. I got I got the outcome that I was hoping for, and therefore, it was a good decision. And we as leaders have to be very careful to evaluate our decisions based on the decision making process, not based on the result we got.
Alex Judd:Okay. So what you're saying is we have a tendency to just evaluate the quality of our decisions based on the quality of the result, but it would be better for us to evaluate the process. Yeah. And and yeah. I I'd love to know, do y'all have thoughts on, like, where does this practically show up for the owner of a small growing business?
Matt Aiken:Well, oftentimes in our coaching calls, people are talking about, well well, I did this thing and I got this outcome and so I'm gonna do it again. And they don't pause. They don't stop to say, what were the ingredients that that got you that outcome? Or or, hey, I I got this outcome. I tried it again.
Matt Aiken:It didn't work. So I'm gonna try it again and again and again, doubling down, which we've talked about in another episode, doubling down on something that wasn't a good decision.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's interesting. I'd be interested to know y'all's thoughts on this. I actually could see it working in the reverse too in that, you know, I mean, y'all y'all had a front row seat to all this. Like, we the area in our business that we probably got bruised, battered, and stubbed our toe the most was trying to delegate and hire for sales sales responsibility in the organization.
Alex Judd:And there were just some things that, man, there there were things that we could have done better in a hiring process or interview process. There were also some times where, like, we brought someone on board, and maybe there was even parts of it that were right and good. It was just there were circumstantial things that we never could have controlled that got in the way of us being able to fully execute and see the fruit come from that thing. And I actually think there was a period of time where we got bruised and battered, and we experienced the pain associated with those results. And we we evaluated the results more than the process.
Alex Judd:And because we said, man, we got all those bad results. We have a pattern of bad results. This just must be something we can't do. We drew that conclusion based on those results. What you're saying is maybe you don't just look at the results.
Alex Judd:Maybe look at the process and try to work backwards from what caused those results. And now we're at a spot where it's like we've I, you know, praise God. I I think we're on the right track now, and we've we've taken a step because we we followed a different process, and we didn't just say, oh, that's not possible because we always get that result.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. I think for me, this was really helpful in in a relational context, a little bit of a relational mess that I've gotten into where, you know, you find yourself doubting. Oh, no. What did I do? What should I undo this decision?
Matt Aiken:Or or how could I walk this back? And this was also helpful for me of saying, hey, I didn't get the result I was looking for, but that was a wise decision. A wise leader in my shoes would have would have made that decision as well. Mhmm. And and the circumstance now is not where I wanna be, but I don't wanna forget.
Matt Aiken:I don't wanna then course correct maybe into people pleasing. Because if I people pleased, you know, in that situation, I might not be in this result. And so yeah. Yeah. It's both, don't evaluate a bad decision because you got a good result, but also don't, don't continue not making good decisions even though you got a bad result.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Kyle Guemmer:Yeah. I look at it in coaching all the time. When we start working with customers, everyone knows you should have meetings. Everyone knows there should be some sort of role clarity or job description or accountability. But when we've done it bad and gotten bad results, at times, there can be hesitancy around, well, I've already tried that and it didn't work.
Kyle Guemmer:Or, hey. We've done meetings before and haven't gotten results, so we're not gonna do meetings anymore. And it's like, well, what is the outcome? But then also, what is the process? And when we write role clarity for someone's role and initiate rhythms of accountability through one on ones, it's like focus more on the process at first over the results.
Kyle Guemmer:And and I think we coach this a lot of, like, this is gonna feel clunky. This is gonna feel awkward. This is actually probably not gonna be super, super effective at first, but when you put in the reps and when you do the process well, the results will come. And so I see that principle in coaching all the time of, really, it's like, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, let's actually evaluate what's going on here and make sure we're getting to those results.
Kyle Guemmer:You may have bad meetings, but what are you trying to accomplish in the meetings? What is the purpose of the meeting? Let's focus on the outcome there in the process of how to get that, not just get rid of the meeting. Yeah. Then some meetings, get rid of.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Maybe in
Alex Judd:some cases, most meetings get rid of. Yeah. It kinda adds a new lens to the idea of, like, trust the process in some ways because, you know, I'm I'm certainly not a Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger expert, but it's kind of like I mean, it's pretty clear. They have an investing philosophy. They have guiding principles.
Alex Judd:They have process for choosing, investing, and where they allocate their resources. Right? They he even says the first rule of investing is never lose money, and there's been times where he's lost money. Right? When he loses money, does he say, I need to change my process because I got that bad result?
Alex Judd:It's like, no. That's the process that's gotten him to where he is today. You're just not perfect. And and I think we need part of trusting the process is not abandoning the process. Maybe it's refining and making sure you're following the process, but don't abandon it.
Alex Judd:Okay. Let's go to the next book, Matt.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. So next book that I that I find myself referencing and coaching a fair amount, but also thinking about a lot is Turn the Ship Around.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I love that book. That's my favorite book on delegation.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. And I I I think Stephen Covey's forward is is one of the most powerful, like
Alex Judd:Oh, I don't know. I don't remember
Matt Aiken:Where he Stephen Covey goes out and so the the book's about the captain who turns the lowest performing submarine in the Pacific fleet.
Alex Judd:Nuclear submarine.
Matt Aiken:Nuclear submarine in the Pacific fleet. It it is it is, like, the worst posting you could get. It's not a great environment. And he turns it around to the highest performing, submarine in the fleet.
Alex Judd:Yeah. His name is David Marquette. It's a remarkable book, like, incredibly practical. So so what was the takeaway from that book?
Matt Aiken:Yeah. So Stephen Covey goes out and visits the submarine and he he's standing, you know, I I don't know what they call it, but on top outside when the submarine's above water,
Alex Judd:right Sure.
Matt Aiken:Right above the hatch. He's talking to the captain and someone walks up and says, sir, I intend to take this ship out to sea. And he says, proceed. And he goes, well, what does what does that mean? I intend.
Matt Aiken:And he goes into it later to explain it. But that idea of we all want leaders and employees on our team who come to us with what they intend to do, and and then they go and do it. And so it's like, we want people who are competent to act as we would act or act effectively without us having to be the primary decision maker.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Man, I I just feel the urge to say now we're getting into some deep water is what
Alex Judd:I consider. Right? Yeah.
Alex Judd:Matt laughed much higher harder than Kyle did at that one. I have
Alex Judd:more kids. That's right. That's right.
Alex Judd:Okay. So, Kyle, let me ask you this. Like, the alternative to I I intend to, to having team members that act, operate, think like leaders and come up to you saying, I intend to do this. What's the alternative that you see oftentimes business owners or leaders settle for on their team?
Kyle Guemmer:They settle for being the cap and the lid on their own organization because now they have to make all the decisions. And it's super easy for them to become bitter and frustrated because all of my employees do nothing but just bring me problems all day. And now I'm the one that has to solve the problem, and no one's solving any problems around here.
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Kyle Guemmer:You've kind of created that environment, but it it also like, that is why that principle is so powerful. You're allowed to bring problems. People in the organization can bring problems. You've done this really good with me on, like at times, I just wanna say, I'm stuck here or I don't know what to do here. And and then it's like, well, what are you like, what are you gonna do?
Kyle Guemmer:And so it's like, bring a problem and a solution, and then let's talk about what the options are within the solutions you're presenting.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Kyle Guemmer:But if you don't, you're stuck with all the decision making. You're stuck with all of the you're just the problem catcher.
Alex Judd:That's right. And what that looks like is a bunch of people, they're still coming to you on the deck of the ship. They're just not saying I intend to. They're saying, what should I do? Yeah.
Alex Judd:What should I do? Or, I mean, JP Kruger, you know, brilliant leader, incredibly effective organization. He has taught me the term upward delegation. And he said, you need to make sure that you're not creating culture in your team where there's upward delegation of, like, people just hand responsibility. Like, that's that's the opposite of what's supposed to be happening, and it's actually gonna bring everything to a grinding halt.
Alex Judd:Right? And so making sure that responsibility actually gets pushed into the organization. Matt, I maybe it's from the book. Maybe it's just from your experience as a CEO or coaching leaders. What is it that leaders do to create a culture that operates with an I intend to attitude?
Matt Aiken:Yeah. One, find finding people that they trust, that they trust their character, they trust their competency, they trust their courage to be a first follower. Mhmm. Like, say, hey, I'm gonna go on a journey of developing you as a leader to be a decision a decision maker. Like, you're giving them authority and you're training them.
Matt Aiken:You're you're training them that, hey, this is this is how we make decisions or here are the framework and principles that we make decisions within. I mean, this is everything from defining core values. Like, these are the non negotiables.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. These are my preferences that are not just my preferences. They're the organization's non negotiables. Right? So training them to be in alignment with that and then getting them really clear on big d direction of the organization, like vision for where we're going, but also vision for that person.
Matt Aiken:Mhmm. So so number one is is training and investing in a first follower to to to take a next step. I I would say the the second thing is is being real clear with yourself as to where you can delegate things. Like, what are some things that you shouldn't have on your plate? Right?
Matt Aiken:Where you are you're finding yourself dealing you're finding yourself running to the easy problems and solving them for other people, being the chief easy button because cause there's some good dopamine associated with with that. Right? Yeah. And so self evaluating where is an area that right now I am I may be procrastinating the things I should be doing because this thing is easy, effective, and and I like it. So finding finding someone to delegate to while also being clear of, hey.
Matt Aiken:What's the thing that I need to be delegating?
Alex Judd:Yeah. It's interesting to think about, like and, you know, we probably need to ask David this question, which I actually think he lists his phone number in the back of that book, so maybe we should actually reach out. But was the thing that was keeping that ship the worst in the navy bad decisions, or was it just that there was a lack of decisions? And, like, what he did is he just said, we're gonna start making decisions, and we're gonna start moving forward and because like, you know, if this is all dependent on the captain, basically, what you're doing is you're you're you're reducing the rate at which you can make decisions. Right?
Alex Judd:And some things you're just not even gonna have visibility into and so it's just not gonna get attended to at all. What you're basically doing is I'm I'm you're saying I'm gonna run this ship not with two eyeballs. I'm gonna run it with, you know, a 100 sets of eyeballs and we're all gonna have the ability to do something about what we see. And what's kind of wild is it's in his scenario, you know, his book is so good because it pushes it back back against people being like, well, you can't delegate that. Like, he has nuclear weapons on board.
Alex Judd:Right? And he's, like, trusting people with insane amounts of responsibility, and he and he codified, just tell me what you intend to do. And more often than not, I'm gonna tell you very well. Yeah. Anything else you wanna add on turn the ship around?
Matt Aiken:I think one of the great points that you get to early in the book is that he starts with his middle managers, not the person right below him. And so he goes and finds these folks and he says, hey, I why am I he asked a question, a why question, which I never split the difference is not on this list, and maybe we need an entire another pod about that. But he he asks a why question to get people's to to get some information. And then he says, well, what would I do or what would you do? Like, asking that question of someone who's who's seen with his own eyes, what's the impact of, formally the captain's decisions and saying, what would you do?
Matt Aiken:And so you don't always have to start with one level below. I don't know. You you gotta approach this with wisdom. You don't wanna do some some end runs around your leaders. He does, but but apply that with wisdom.
Matt Aiken:But just, you know, going to where in the organization, is there a low risk, high reward item that could start to get some momentum in in this delegation I intend framework.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Really good. Okay. What's the next book?
Alex Judd:I had to get a biography
Matt Aiken:in here. You know that. So the next book is is Walter Isaacson's biography of Elon Musk. Probably one of the most interesting books that I read back in in 2024, and and a book that I got to talk about at last year's experience. And specifically, I find myself whenever we're having a a a tactical conversation in coaching, coming back to the his algorithm, Elon's five steps, for for how he improves efficiency and in it, and outcomes.
Alex Judd:Yeah. This is so good. So so how about you just walk us through the five steps, and then I think it'll be good to kinda unpack some of that.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. Number one, question every requirement.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Matt Aiken:Number two, delete what's not absolutely necessary. Number three, simplify what's remaining. Number four, accelerate cycle time. And number five is automate.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I mean, this would be a fun we could do a whole episode on this one. Kyle, I would like to know for you, you know, maybe it's looking at the algorithm holistically. Maybe it's looking at one of the five points. Which one to you feels like it's maybe could make the greatest impact if small business owners actually embraced it?
Kyle Guemmer:I think the delete what's necessary. I like the first two, but you made me choose one. Delete what's not necessary. And the reason why, and especially maybe in the context of coaching, is there are a lot of things that we are going to actually implement and actually put structure and systems in place, which could mean addition, addition, addition, and now I'm even busier and more stressed than when I began. And I think when you look at delete what's not necessary, you have to really put and look at what are the things that are not producing the results that I want, what feels like waste, what feels like activity without results, and, like, let's first actually get rid of that before then we start to add on.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I I think it's important to call out, especially as it relates to that is, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, the aim of this algorithm is efficiency. Mhmm. Right? Which is using the least amount of resources to produce the best possible outcome.
Alex Judd:Right? And and it's probably reasonable to assume the outcome that we're talking about here is profitability. Yes? Or we Getting to bar colonizing bars, maybe.
Matt Aiken:For for him, yeah, I would say it's profitability. Yeah. That's a fair assessment.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Which is interesting because it's like not I don't know that everyone on Earth holds efficiency at the same, like, pinnacle value or or at the same level of priority that Elon does. And and now that's not me saying we shouldn't learn from this algorithm, but you should understand, like, where does efficiency fall in your list of priority? Yeah. What are your thoughts there?
Matt Aiken:Yeah. I mean, I think one of my favorite, Dave Ramsey quotes is normal freaking sucks. Right? Normal freaking sucks. Yeah.
Matt Aiken:And what happens, it's normal for us to accrue wasted processes, unneeded processes. Peter Drucker says there's nothing worse than doing something well that shouldn't be done at all.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Matt Aiken:So it's not I mean, yes. He his aim is profitability. His aim is we have to do it at this efficiency level in order to accomplish the mission. And and for him, in this scenario was about profitability. But, man, if we're gonna if we're gonna have an impact on on people, then I wanna do that in the most resource effective way possible.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. My resources, my employees' resources, the resources of the business so that others benefit and God is glorified. Mhmm. I think God calls us not to idolize efficiency Yeah. But he calls us to do things with Mhmm.
Alex Judd:I guess the competing thought that I have in my head with this is there's a there's a leader that I really value and respect that he he kind of runs a a program. It's an entertainment program, but he he he's built a remarkable business around this entertainment program. I heard him make the statement recently. He said, the the best version of this show is not the most profitable version of this show. Because he said, there is a way for us to be more profitable than what we currently are.
Alex Judd:And he said, and if we just pursue that as our pinnacle outcome, we become NASCAR is what he said. And, you know, you look at NASCAR, and it's like, I mean, they have they have sponsored every single square inch of that sport. Right? And he said, like, we have decided that, like, our audience that we are trying to serve and the way we're trying to serve them would not value and appreciate that. In some ways, I feel like that's I I don't think it's a a competing value, but I do think it is a a complementary value to, like, delete anything that's unnecessary or just optimize for efficiency.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. That's good. I think that there there is a a lot of wisdom that needs to be applied to this. Sure. Anytime.
Matt Aiken:I I said this in my talk. One of my I was preparing it, was like, man, I'm pretty nervous to bring up Elon. Like, how are people gonna respond? Yeah. Because people respond a lot of different ways.
Matt Aiken:Sure. Today, I mean, today is the IPO of SpaceXi. Yeah. And it's like, oh, okay. He's definitely pretty efficient from a value perspective.
Matt Aiken:Right? Sure. But but there's a lot of bad habits. There's a lot of unworthy characteristics. And there's a lot to learn.
Matt Aiken:So I I would say we need to approach this with wisdom. We need to approach this through the lens of mission and values. And remember that the owner is setting the standard for the outcome they're looking for. Mhmm. You don't need to set the standard of I'm looking for a a massive net profit.
Matt Aiken:I want to invest. But I would say if if you don't have a right now an opportunity for generosity because you're you're just scraping by, Like, this is a good algorithm to apply of saying like That's right. I I need I want to grow resources so that I can be generous. Maybe generous with my time. I love when my doctor sits with me a little extra during my, you know, during my my visit.
Matt Aiken:And that's not the most efficient visit I have. But hopefully, your doctors earn the right to do that because they're not worried about or being stretched thin for resources.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Yeah. You know, and something that stands out to me here too is it is so easy to sit in the seat of judgment of other people's outcomes as a means of avoiding getting clear about your own. Mhmm. And you know, like there's a lot of people that are like, well, profit isn't the main thing for us or like efficiency isn't the main thing.
Alex Judd:And I I have been this person in past and it's like, you can sit there and criticize everyone else. And meanwhile, we're saying, okay. So what, like, what are you pursuing? And you're much less clear on that. You're just better at talking about what other people shouldn't be pursuing and how you're more virtuous than they are, which is a very it it's not constructive.
Alex Judd:It's actually incredibly destructive. Okay. Let's keep going. What what's the fourth book, Matt?
Matt Aiken:Number four, Radical Candor by Kim Scott.
Alex Judd:Yeah. On my notes, your your takeaway here is just you sound stupid, which I I hope that's not direct. I I think it's directed towards Kyle is what you're saying.
Matt Aiken:You gave him that book yesterday with, what
Alex Judd:what was it? What's the book called? Yeah. I gave you a book that I said, oh, I
Alex Judd:I think you would love this, and it's The Road
Alex Judd:Less stupid. Yeah.
Alex Judd:There was one time where Aspen and I, at the same time, we we have our our evening reading books on our nightstands, and she had a book called Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud, and I had a book called The Great Divorce by
Alex Judd:CS Lewis.
Alex Judd:And I was like, the woman that cleans our house
Alex Judd:is gonna think something is very terribly wrong. Oh my goodness.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Okay. Let let's get into Radical Candor.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. So so Radical Candor, we had, you know, we had Kate. Right? Kim Scott. Yeah.
Matt Aiken:Kim Scott opens with a story from her career that really shaped how she gives and delivers feedback. She was a director specifically in the in the I think it was the the AdWords team, and this was at the beginning of AdWords being a huge, huge section of Google's revenue and profitability. And she goes and she's presenting to the board. She presents, you know, our numbers have beat expectations. We're crushing it.
Matt Aiken:There's so much opportunity. And she leaves that room thinking, oh, man, that went so well. They were thrilled. They can't wait to have me back. And to some extent, they were.
Matt Aiken:They were thrilled with the results that she had presented. But she was walking through the hallways after the meeting with her leader. And her leader very kindly pointed out that she said a lot, that her speech patterns weren't as fluid as you would expect of someone presenting to a to a CEO and a board of directors and offered her coaching. Hey. Why don't we get you some coaching on your communication style?
Matt Aiken:And and Kim goes, oh, no. No. No. I'm good. I I don't need that.
Matt Aiken:That's no problem. And brings it up again. She's resistant again. And finally, they stop in the hallway and her leader looks at her and says, okay, Cam, I see that I'm going to have to be very direct with you. When you say you sound stupid.
Matt Aiken:And I remember reading that line be
Alex Judd:woah, that is a little uncomfortable.
Matt Aiken:Yeah. And then she proceeds, and I know that you're not. You're an incredibly smart and gifted individual, and I don't want people to perceive you as stupid just because you say a lot when you present. Why don't we talk about you getting some communication coaching? And I think that story is so powerful because so often when we read that, we'd be like, oh, I would never say something like that.
Matt Aiken:That's unkind. But what do we say? To be unclear is to be unkind. What if this leader had not taken the courage to clearly communicate the urgency of this feedback and clearly communicate the impact of her not taking the feedback.
Alex Judd:That's so good. And a question that I have for the two of you, I so we just recently spent some time together as a team, and, one of the things that we always do at our team experience is we do affirmations. And I can't remember who it was, but someone in particular affirmed Olivia. And they said, like, you have this unique ability as a manager to, like, really challenge me. Like, really, like, basically say, like, you can do better, and I leave feeling encouraged.
Alex Judd:And I leave feeling with, like, a sense of hopefulness. And and they said it's like, man, it's just like I've never I can't remember who it was. Do you remember who it was? I don't know. They they said, I I leave just feeling like I can be better, and I leave feeling good, not bad.
Alex Judd:When you're when I then I think about it, I'm like, she actually told me some really hard things. Number one, you know, y'all work with Olivia a lot. Do y'all agree with that perspective? Do you experience that? And what is it in terms of the way that she does it that that makes it, clear and kind?
Kyle Guemmer:I'll probably have you talk about, like, the the steps of influence because I I you love using that framework, and I see that framework in Olivia. But how how I see that with Olivia, Olivia's been incredibly effective in I attribute a lot of my growth as a coach to her and her ability to give feedback. And and kind of the difference between, like, nice and kind, It's like I have a lot of if you are if you are nice to me, you're not gonna try to rock the boat. You're gonna tell me what I wanna hear. You're gonna you're gonna say pleasantries.
Kyle Guemmer:When you're kind, you're acting in my best interest. And so I trust Olivia. I trust her competence and her ability, and I also trust when she's telling me something, she's acting in my best interest. And she's also giving me a way out of it through me getting to borrow some of her belief, but then also paving a way for what's possible. And so for someone like that, it's like when Olivia opens her mouth to give me feedback, it's like, I want to I'm actually almost begging for that feedback because I know if she gives me that feedback, I get better.
Kyle Guemmer:When I get better, people are served more effectively. And when people are served more effectively, lives are impacted.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. What is it about the fact that Olivia can give you feedback and and, you know, I don't get the impression from either of you that you get feedback from Olivia, and you're not, like, walking around being like, oh, Olivia and I are on the rocks now. Like, we're struggling now. Like Absolutely not. What what does she because I think a lot of people when they receive feedback from their boss, that is exactly how they feel.
Alex Judd:It's like there's, like, weeks sometimes sometimes longer of, oh, we're on the rocks now, and, man, I need to really change everything about who I am and what I do just to reset this relationship. Thoughts there?
Matt Aiken:The framework from this book is to deliver good feedback, you need to care deeply and communicate directly. Mhmm. And so there's one thing about Olivia that I know. She cares deeply for myself Yeah. My family, and my customers, and the company.
Matt Aiken:Mhmm. Myself, my family, like my customers and the company. And so when she's delivering feedback to me, it might be uncomfortable, but she's earned the right through her actions and through her character for me to go, she's not telling me this to harm me. It might hurt a little bit. She's telling me this because there's she has a vision for me and for our customers and for our company on the other side of this on the other side of me implementing and hearing this feedback.
Matt Aiken:Mhmm. She cares a lot.
Alex Judd:A lot a lot. Yeah. I think that's so well said. Okay. Well, the book recommendations that we'll put in the show notes of the episode are thinking in bets, turn the ship around, Elon Musk, particularly the Walter Isaacson version.
Alex Judd:Right? And radical candor by Kim Scott. Matt, thanks for compiling this list, and thank you all for unpacking this together. Super fun. Well, there you have it.
Alex Judd:Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode?
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