3 Leadership Insights from 1 Thessalonians 4
But we encourage you brothers and sisters to do this even more, to seek to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your hands as we commanded you so that you may behave properly in the presence of outsiders and not be dependent on anyone?
Alex Judd:Oh, I'm excited about this one. So I I read this in first Thessalonians four eleven the other day, and I was just immediately struck by how glaringly out of step it is with so much of our culture today, but then also not even just struck by how out of step it is with culture, convicted by how sometimes the thing it is idealizing in this scripture is not the things that I aspire to. And got to spend some time thinking about that and praying about that, and then just honestly took some of my takeaways and put them in a LinkedIn post. And praise God, this was so cool. Like, I wrote the LinkedIn post, and it was my best recently written LinkedIn post in terms of performance that I remember.
Alex Judd:People, like, really resonate with it. And so from that, I was really, really pumped to talk to you particularly about the applications of first Thessalonians four eleven to life and leadership. And, thankfully, you were pumped as well. So I wanna know why are you excited about this conversation and unpacking this scripture?
Ben Loy:I I think for some of the same reasons that that you pointed out, it speaks against a lot of things that I think are really are evident in our culture right now. And honestly, just so so practical, like verse 11, to seek to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands. Like, those are three, like, very practical commands. And so I'm just really excited to, like, dive into what does that actually mean? Like, what does that mean for us?
Ben Loy:Like, who who is Paul talking to in this context? And and, yeah, like, what is God committing us to do in this passage?
Alex Judd:That's right. Yeah. So so let's read it again, and then we'll start to explore and unpack and hopefully pull out some practical takeaways for us as leaders and for the people listening. My version's actually a little bit different than yours, so I'll read it this time. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more and to aspire to live quietly and to mind your own affairs affairs and to work with your hands as we instructed you so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.
Alex Judd:So from a contextual perspective, neither us are theologians, but we we know enough about the bible to be dangerous. We know that this is the apostle Paul writing the church at Thessalonica. And just in my study and what I found, it's like I was so excited about because I'm going through the full bible right now and I just hit Thessalonians. I was so pumped to get a letter from Paul where he's actually like, there is so much that you're doing so well. Yep.
Alex Judd:And that and that's actually hit on in this scripture as he's saying, y'all are loving each other so well and they're like, people are talking about what's going on in the city of Thessalonica and the church of Thessalonica. And he says, but we urge you to do more and more. But then throughout first and second Thessalonians, it it almost seems like he's warning them against some things, but also kind of highlighting some things that might even be small issues that could become big issues. And that's some of the context that I read around this verse. Is there anything else that you'd add in terms of what you read contextually that might help people understand what we're diving into here?
Ben Loy:Yeah. No. I I the same thing came up in the commentaries I was reading and then just even just reading about why this letter was written. It's like Paul Yes, there were There are a few things in the church that he he calls out for them to be aware of, to be cautious of, but ultimately, like, this is a really encouraging letter, and and Paul is, like, admonishing and, like, encouraging the the church here to continue doing what they're doing.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. What was the thing that you referenced right before we hit record about, like, it's a commonality for every chapter in Thessalonians or something like that?
Ben Loy:Jesus' second coming is mentioned in every chapter in first Thessalonians.
Alex Judd:Which yeah. That I mean, that I've that's why I love the tools and resources that we have today because I don't think I would pick up on that trend just reading it on my own, but it's like when you notice that you're like, oh man, clearly that's a overarching theme that he wanted to hit home on. Yep. And we'll probably get into that as we dive into some of the practical exhortations in this. So the the first thing that stood out to me was live quietly.
Alex Judd:I have a question for you on this, and it's actually a question that's not original to me. It's one of the LinkedIn comments, that came up in response to my post about this scripture. They said, live quietly dot dot dot. Does that mean silent suffering? Question mark.
Alex Judd:And I I was like, depending on what tone you read that with, this person could be very, like, hostile or they could just be curious. Right? Let's take them as curious. Like, what does that actually mean? Does that mean silent suffering?
Alex Judd:What are your thoughts there?
Ben Loy:I guess the first thing would be is to identify what is what is silent suffering and and probably where are they coming from in that context. And the Act Like Men podcast you sent me that Joey Martin recently had he recently had a roundtable with Matt Chandler, Tim Tebow, you know, and, I mean, it was
Alex Judd:a It was a massive roundtable. Who's the comedian that's on there? You might be a redneck if that guy
Ben Loy:Yeah. I don't remember.
Alex Judd:I can't remember his name either.
Ben Loy:But regardless, that was actually something that they mentioned specifically to men that is, like, is is a is a consistent theme in our culture is, like, to be a man is to suffer silently. And I do not think that that is what this passage is saying. Yeah. Like, I think that in many ways that actually goes against, like, the heart of Jesus and the heart of the heart of God. I mean, our relationship with with God is to be Part of that dynamic is to be fully known.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. And suffering silently doesn't mean you're fully known in the context of the people around you and in the context of your relationship with the Lord. Like, Jesus I was just reading this yesterday in Hebrews. Jesus, is is our high priest, and he's he's not a high priest that we can't relate to. He was tempted in every way.
Ben Loy:And so, like, that understanding of we have a we have a relatable savior, and so we shouldn't be suffering silently because we can identify in the struggles of people around us and the struggles that, like, Jesus struggled for us. And so it would be counterintuitive to suffer silently.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:So I I do not think that that is what it what it is saying because I think that that would be contrary to what the rest of scripture says and the dynamic in our relationship with Jesus.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And maybe it's a distinction between silence and quiet. Right. You know, it say it doesn't say live silently. It says live quietly.
Alex Judd:And based on the reading that I've done, but also just in in my prayer on this verse, what what I take his challenge to aspire to live quietly as is to not generate drama and controversy as a means of garnering attention.
Ben Loy:Yep.
Alex Judd:I think it is true that human beings need attention. Mhmm. That I and I don't think that's a bad need. I think that is a legitimate, God given, and because it's God given, it is a good need. Every single need that we have, we can meet in illegitimate ways.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. And I think what he's calling attention to is our proclivity or propensity to take that God given need for attention, to be seen, to be known, to be noticed, to be recognized, and to fill that need by illegitimate means. And what's crazy is social media didn't exist when Paul wrote this and it was a problem, which now it's like we've given everyone a megaphone with easy access to an illegitimate way to meet that legitimate need.
Ben Loy:When it comes to you said the difference between silence and and being silent and being quiet Mhmm. I just had the thought of, like, what are the contexts in which we as human beings are quiet?
Alex Judd:And
Ben Loy:in in just, like, in social settings and in the places we go and I'm, like, I'm, like, libraries, you walk into, like, a large church or cathedral and you instantly, like, you know, there's, like, a certain level of, like, awe and
Alex Judd:respect Reverence.
Ben Loy:And reverence that you And even, like, I even think oftentimes when I'm hiking and, like, I go I go to the Grand Canyon, I go somewhere, for some reason, I I find myself, like, whispering in a way of, like, there there's this, like, reverence of, like, this thing that I'm the space that I'm standing in holds so much more respect or, you know, in many ways even makes me feel small. And there's just this, like, awe and reverence that causes me to be quiet and to avoid I mean, whispering, you know, you whisper in a library, you you would you would whisper in a church. It's like, that causes me to want to make myself small and not bring attention to myself because there's something out there that is greater. And so I I think that is what this is sort of alluding to and and what you mentioned, like, yeah, like, drawing attention, unnecessary attention to yourself and understanding, like, the greater thing outside of yourself.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I feel tension as it relates to this because I feel like one of we could say this literally and then a little bit more figuratively and metaphorically is I feel like one of the strengths that has gotten me to where I am in my career is my volume. Right? And like volume can be, I mean, legitimately can be the sheer, like, of how I talk. Right?
Alex Judd:People across the room can hear me, but also just I like I like doing things that are charismatic and that garner people's attention. And and it's not even just attention. I like creating engagement in things. Right? And so I would be genuinely very interested to know.
Alex Judd:How how do you take that as, like, maybe there's there's a part of that that's a strength, but how do you make sure that's oriented around the right aim and ambition, which is glorifying God and in alignment with what it's saying here, which is to aspire to live quietly? Mhmm. Like, do I need to change who I am, or what do I do with that?
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I think any any strength needs to be used and and tempered with discernment.
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Right? It doesn't matter what strength that is. Like, I mean, you could take physical strength because it's an it's an easy it's a really easy metaphor. Right? Like, when is it appropriate to use physical strength?
Ben Loy:Like, when you're lifting heavy weight, when when physical when something is required of you that whether yard work or, and, you know, in today's context, yard work, an emergency,
Alex Judd:picking up your kids.
Ben Loy:Picking up your kids. Right? But then in the same context, the way that you pick up a five year old is gonna vary diff very differently than the way that you pick up your daughter the day after she's born. And so Mhmm. And, like, their resilience.
Ben Loy:And so being able to understand, like, strength isn't like, all strengths and all gifts aren't supposed to be used equally across all contexts. Like, there
Alex Judd:is
Ben Loy:discernment and wisdom that needs to be applied to different situations. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And do you have self control? We know that self control is a fruit of the spirit within the gift or strength that you've been given. I also really like the way that you oriented living quietly as keeping yourself small. Like, I used to think larger than life was a compliment. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Oh, that person's larger than life, and we use it as a compliment. In reality, they're not actually larger than life, and they can't be. So the fact that they're giving you that image might actually not be a compliment. That might not be a good thing and what what I think in some ways this is challenging us to do aspire to live quietly, aspire to to be right sized, aspire to not look any bigger than what you actually are and not to be a consumer of attention, but rather to, you know, to serve, to pour out, to put the spotlight on others and on God, not on yourself.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, larger than life just means unrelatable. And Yeah. And if you're unrelatable and Jesus is Jesus humbled himself to to be someone that we can relate and identify with in our suffering, like, if you're unrelatable, you're you are not operating like Jesus.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Which is absurd because, you know, we're we're recording this before Christmas. It will air after Christmas. It's like, if anyone was larger than life, it was him. Right?
Alex Judd:Yeah. He he was actually, by definition, larger than life, but he actively came down to be in life and made himself smaller so that he could be relatable. Right? Which is the whole meaning of Christmas in so many ways. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Yeah. So that kind of expands live quietly, not just to the volume of your voice, although if that is your aspiration, will massively affect the volume of your voice in many cases.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:But also to just the way that we perceive ourselves and the way we interact with others and with God. Mhmm. Okay. How about we go to the the next kind of practical exhortation, which is to mind your own affairs. What what stood yours said mind your own business.
Ben Loy:Mine just says straight up mind your own business, which I was like, this is definitely one of those verses that someone, yeah, someone who isn't a believer or doesn't know the bible well could, like, yank out and be, like, Christians are supposed to mind their own business so Like, shut it's, like, I don't think that's exactly what this is saying but There
Alex Judd:are also times where I'm reading, especially Paul, and I'm like, I know he didn't use expletives, but if he did use expletives, this would be a spot where you'd get where you'd mind your own business.
Ben Loy:But, in the footnotes, it says, literal interpretation is to practice one's own things Mhmm. Which I think actually, it, like, gives a lot more context to what that what that means. Mind your own business can be can sound very, like, shut up and focus on yourself. And and honestly, there there there's a couple directions that could go where, like, I think people could use that as an excuse not to engage in their culture, not to engage with their neighbors and and focus on themselves. And then all of a sudden, it's it's me, me, me, me, me, and it has nothing to do with being kingdom minded and focused on Jesus and trusting him with your sanctification.
Ben Loy:It's like Mhmm. I mean, that that could so easily go the wrong way if you don't understand what he's actually saying here. I think to practice or yeah, to practice one's own things gives a little bit more context because the way that I I I hear that is, oh, like, everyone here has been has been given gifts and lots in life that they are called to steward well. They are called to lead well. And like to mind your own business and to practice one's own things is to acknowledge that like there is so much in this life that I have absolutely no influence and control over, but like these are the things that God has called me to like exercise my influence over.
Ben Loy:And like, this is what I'm going to put my attention and energy
Alex Judd:towards. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:So that's how I understand that to be. I'm curious what your thoughts are.
Alex Judd:I agree with you largely. I think that there's a a tension associated with mind your own affairs or mind your own business. I love the phrase practice your own things that you highlighted. How do we square that with Jesus saying, you are the light of the world? A city on a hill cannot be hidden nor do people hide a lamp under a basket but on a stand and it gives light to all the house.
Alex Judd:In the same way, let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify the father in heaven. How do we hold that with that Jesus literally said with Paul saying, mind your own business?
Ben Loy:I would say what Jesus said, which was they will know you by how you love one another. You know? Like How does that tie into this? I think, again, like, the reality is that, you know I mean, we say this. If someone depends on you, you are a leader.
Ben Loy:And so if you're minding your own if you're, you know, if you're practicing or minding your own business or or paying attention to what is in front of you, what God has placed in front of you to steward over and to lead, that involves people and community and the individuals in your life. And so if you're if you're really doing that well, you are loving the people around you well and in turn, like, you will be a light. Right? Because Mhmm. You will be known or Jesus will be known by how you love the people around you.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That is interesting because there's nothing in that so there's nothing in mind your own business that actually means isolate yourself from other people. There's also nothing in let your light shine before others that says, you know, but in the same way make sure your light is brighter than theirs. Mhmm. Right?
Alex Judd:It's like they're we're really not talking about other people's light at all. We're talking about your light, and we're we're saying that should be influencing other people, but it's it's kind of irrelevant what other people's light gifts, talents, strengths, pursuit standards are. So so I actually think that the two, they actually don't even contradict each other. They actually align a lot with what, you know, like you focus on you being a light that influences others and don't really base your contribution to the world on what other people are doing.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:So, you know, the most base level practical application of this is, like, don't don't gossip, right? And and I I think of gossip as this the way that I was taught it at Ramsey is anytime, you say something negative about about someone to someone that can't do anything about it. Right? So it's like if if we're talking about something negative or constructive, theoretically constructive, like we have two choices. We can talk to the person because they can obviously do something about it, or we can talk to someone that that can do something about it.
Alex Judd:In an organizational context, that's a leader in the organization, right? What we so often do is we go to our peers and at that point we're not actually we're not seeking reconciliation or progress Mhmm. In in that moment. But my bet is that a a lot of the leaders on here know, hey. I I don't wanna gossip.
Alex Judd:I don't need to gossip. It's it's not it's not good for me. Where does mind your own business become really practical and relevant for leaders today that may not struggle with just the base level gossip?
Ben Loy:Mhmm. The first thing that comes to mind is, like, the media that we consume and how much it consumes us. Like, yeah, I I think it's it's really easy to get wrapped up in in what's going on politically, what's going on in world events, what's going on, you know, in policy making. And not to say that those things aren't important and we shouldn't participate, again, like, vote, like, participate in the ways in which God has given us the ability to to actually, like, steward and impact and influence the results of those things. But the other side of that is it it's becoming so consuming that it's affecting both your attention to the things that God has placed in front of you to steward, or or it's just affecting the heart in which you're approaching those people and those things.
Ben Loy:Like, the reality is, like, we we I'm sure we all have family members who have different beliefs than we do politically. And, like, the reality is God placed you in that family. He Mhmm. He, like, knit you in your mother's womb and and chose that, like, you were going to be living in this time, in this place, in that family and, like, those people are a responsibility that you have. And so in maintaining those relationships and then in really, like, exemplifying Christ to them is Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Is your core responsibility. And so I would say that's, like, a very practical picture of of something that I think a lot of people deal with and struggle with, especially, yeah, around the holidays and things like that where you're mingling more with with those individuals.
Alex Judd:I I so agree with you. I I also think it really when I'm failing at this, I am looking at other people to set my pace. I'm looking at how fast they're accomplishing things or gaining or acquiring or moving forward. Right? And what's crazy is there's no telling if what I'm looking at is actually true in terms of I it's the story that I'm telling myself about how fast they're moving, everything they're doing.
Alex Judd:And I'm saying, oh, because other people are moving this fast, that's what I need to be accomplishing. That's the pace that I need to be running. And I mean, I have literally tried that exact philosophy in marathons before is benchmarking my pace based on other people that I'm like, well, they, you know, I need to be going as fast as they do. And let me tell you, it does not Like, run your race is something I have to hear over and over and over again. And and I think run your race goes right in alignment with practice your own things, mind your own business, mind your own affairs.
Alex Judd:Okay. Let's go to the next one. This one I thought was really interesting. Work with your hands. So specific as we instructed you so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.
Alex Judd:Let's just start with work with your hands. From your perspective, is that, a very practical and specific thing that applied to the people in Thessalonica when Paul wrote this letter? Or is that something that it's like, no, I I actually don't think that's that's dotted line related to us right now. I think that's directly related to us right now.
Ben Loy:Well, I guess before making any comments on this, I would I would like to, like, identify that this passage at the very beginning in verse nine starts and it goes about brotherly love. And then a part of brotherly love is to work with your hands. Interesting. Just think that's, like, really important to identify. Like, Paul is not separating work and love.
Ben Loy:And I think our culture does that. Like, we talk a lot about, like, work life balance. It's a it's a big thing right now. And and I think sometimes that that picture, the question we should really be asking ourselves is like, is work life balance really the term we wanna be using? And does that actually reflect what the Bible is teaching?
Ben Loy:Or is there another way that we should be approaching work Mhmm. In a way that that is providing for yourself and providing for the people you're charged with providing for so that, like, you you can they can grow in their capacity, you can grow in your leadership, and and, you know, that's where love comes from, right, is is through that provision. Mhmm. I I guess to go back on your question, like, to work with your hands. Yeah, like, the idea of, like, sitting on a laptop and being, like, is this really working with my hands, you know?
Ben Loy:Am I am I really, like, I I guess is that is that what you're asking? Like, difference in
Alex Judd:I think I'm interested to know is, like, should we take Anne to work with your Anne work with your hands? Like, that's what he's telling us to do. Should we be like, well, I haven't done that in a while, but that might not apply to me because I don't live in, you know, Paul's time in Thessalonica, or should we take this as like, I'm not doing that a ton right now. I should be doing that.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I I think that there is and I I'm not a scientist but What? I've I've I
Alex Judd:have I did not You led me to believe No.
Ben Loy:But there I have, like, enough anecdotal evidence and, I mean, like Experience. And experience and, like, just in in in the things I have read and consumed, it's like, the reality is when you move your body and when you accomplish things by moving your body, your mental health improves, your physical health improves, you live longer. And the cascading effect of that is often, like, your relationships are better. Especially if you're working and and working with your hands and moving your body around other people, that bond is strengthened and that relationship is strengthened. And so I'd I would I would argue that it goes both ways.
Ben Loy:Like in this in the context of this verse in the in the day and age, I think that working with your hands probably applied directly to both physical movement and, like, working with your hands. But then also, as he continues to go on, and you may not be dependent on anyone, like working with your hands also included providing for yourself and providing for your family so that you wouldn't be a burden to the people around you, right? So I think in this context, pause is those are one and the same because of this culture. Today's context is different because, like I said, you can you can have a job where you sit in front of a laptop all day
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:And you're not really work I mean, I guess you're typing, but like you're not that labor isn't there, that
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:That same same level of physical striving and movement. And so I would say both of those elements are present in this verse, in this context. In today's context, they might be two separate things that we have to be, like, aware of and and monitor in a different way of like, hey, am I actively, like, working with my hands and providing for, you know, myself and and the people around me.
Alex Judd:Yes. One of the things that I recognize is the more we create structure in our business in a healthy way, one of the outcomes of that that's an incredibly desirable outcome is more and more over the course of past five years, my job as the CEO becomes working on the business, not working in the business. And that's also what we teach so many of our customers to move towards is working on your business, not just working in your business. And I get so much benefit every time I get back into business or get back into work. Like and certainly I could say that's true with coaching.
Alex Judd:Anytime I go travel, get boots on the ground with a business, like actually roll up my sleeves and try to like struggle through some of the hard problems that day to day business owners are facing. I get better in every way. Also, every time I mow the grass, trim the tree, pull weeds in the yard, like chain, do the maintenance on our cold plunge, right? Like every time I do work with my hands, I actually become better at the strategic work that I'm supposed to do. Because, you know, I don't think I'm unique in the fact that I can spend a lot of my time talking about ideas and ideating things on whiteboards and in meetings and in discussion, and a lot of that can be incredibly fruitful and very profitable.
Alex Judd:And I don't think that that's a bad thing. If my life and work becomes only that, I think I become a shell of myself and quite frankly become a shell of a man. And so, you know, I think it's so good for your soul to do things that you can visualize tangible progress and that are a little bit unrelenting. Right? In like the yard is not subjective.
Alex Judd:It looks good or it looks bad. And and like there are weeds or there are not weeds. It is mowed well or it's not. And there's so much of the world that I do operate in that is subjective. It's actually really helpful to go to things that like the standard is so wildly clear and it affects the standards that I bring into my more strategic or mental work, I think.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I think that's a huge like, that was something that I saw in the military is, like, you know, in in the lower pay grades, like, my job, for instance, like, in the lower pay grades, you know, you're you're going on flights, you're standing duty, you're you're actively participating and moving your body and doing the job itself. Right? And then the higher up you go in in the rankings, the more and more disconnected you are and the more you're sitting at a desk and and and in meetings and like, it you you just get further and further separated from the
Alex Judd:people
Ben Loy:who are actually really accomplishing the mission of the organization. And I think there are moments where I saw leaders do that well. I think the overall culture of of it was, like, more often, man, people at the top are just making decisions and they're just so far disconnected from the realities of what it means to, like, actually walk through those decisions at at the base level. Right?
Alex Judd:And And he's hitting home here. Like, it's a so, you know, previous to this verse, he like we already said, he's talking about how things are going so well. Mhmm. And then he says, but we urge you do these things more and more and to aspire. So he's like, he's telling us, like, do these things also.
Alex Judd:Even though things are going so well, also do these things. And so it's like, I take that like, let, I mean, this might be a little boneheaded how much I simplify things sometimes, but it's like, when things are going well, I want to look up and being like, I need to do something with my hands. I need to get I need to do something hard. I because because that's the time when I I struggle most with becoming complacent, becoming lazy Yeah. Becoming idle.
Alex Judd:And so that's a really practical, like, when things are going well, dadgummit, go do something with your hands that probably involves mud because that would be really good you. And that could be figurative or literal mud, but, the more literal, the better, I think. I I also think we should highlight that so he's given us all of these exhortations, live quietly, mind your own business, work with your hands. And then it says so that and so that we know is a statement of purpose. Like, here's the reason why we're doing all of this.
Alex Judd:And the so that is very connected to what Jesus already said about being the light before others. You may walk properly before outsiders.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And the context that I read on this is like outsiders is unbelievers. Right? This is how you should be acting in the church so that this is what people outside the church, people that don't believe see. And so in so many ways, he's saying, like, you doing these things is your greatest testimony. You, like, just not drawing attention to yourself, but selling out to serving others.
Alex Judd:You minding your own business and establishing your own standard, you working diligently with your hands, that is your testimony. And I I just it stands out to me so much that that's the driving motive behind this. It's all oriented to the testimony that we're giving to others about who God actually is. Yeah. Absolutely.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. And if you're doing those things, like, you go back and if you're you're leading a quiet life, you're minding your own business, and you're working with your hands, but you're not postured towards that purpose, you're doing it wrong.
Alex Judd:Explain that a little bit more.
Ben Loy:Like, like, I think that you could you could seek to lead a quiet life, you could seek to mind your own business and to work with your hands, and you could do all of those things for selfish reasons. Like, I don't Like, the the fact, like, what you're driving home is is the purpose behind why Paul is telling them to continue to do these things.
Alex Judd:Yeah. It's strength is for service, I think, in so many ways. And then it goes and be dependent on no one. Mhmm. Which almost is like, wait a second.
Alex Judd:Did I just turn into, like, a a conservative news broadcast? Like, what is that? Which I'm sure this verse could be taken out of context for a conservative news broadcast. Right? But but so much if we really get deep into the gospel, so much of the gospel is, saying don't strive for a life of total independence.
Alex Judd:But now suddenly, it's saying and be dependent on no one. How do you read that? And how do we make sure we take that with wisdom and not just, not just at the most shallow level of interpretation?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Not to intentionally be a burden on other people because of your lack of action or your lack of leadership. I I think I think that's when you look at the context of the verses prior to that, like, is he's he's giving practical steps you can take and then, like, the purpose of that being, like and I think mind your mind your business is probably the best one that applies most directly to this of, like yeah. Like, steward the things that God has given you well Stewardship. Yeah.
Ben Loy:In a way that, like, you aren't being an unnecessary burden on the people around you. That's different than experiencing suffering, which first Thessalonians actually has a lot to say about because this church was being persecuted. That that looks a lot different than than going through a season of suffering and and needing people to surround you in prayer and support.
Alex Judd:Like Yeah.
Ben Loy:There's a difference between, like, he is making a direct correlation between loving your brothers and work. Mhmm. And if if that is what you're focusing on and you are you are stewarding the things that God has given you well, but suffering comes, I don't think that he's saying hunker down and, yeah, suffer silently.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Yeah. I I take it as don't stall out and don't be a leech.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, if we are if we are in the context of things are going well, then it is really, really easy to just start coasting. Mhmm. And the minute we start coasting, the minute that's the minute we stop contributing. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? And and we're not called to coast. We're called to give us this day our daily bread, and and we're gonna show up faithfully every single day Mhmm. Looking for the daily bread and and saying, don't work for human masters. So the fact that I might have accomplished other people's standard in terms of my financial wealth or my career ambitions, I don't just stop because I achieved their standard.
Alex Judd:It's like, I'm I'm working for the glory of God. Like, there is no stop. Right? And then also don't be a leech. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, are you using what you've been given? Mhmm. And that's a a pretty relentless standard as well. Right? And and it's so easy to point the finger at everyone else in this, but, like, are you using what you've been given to provide for yourself and others?
Alex Judd:And answer that question honestly and genuinely Mhmm. And and work to make sure the answer to that is yes. Mhmm. Right? And that's our standard for success each day.
Alex Judd:Are you using what you've been given faithfully for the glory of God and the service of others? Because if you do that, there is certainly times where there is social injustice at play, but more often than not, you become someone that's not a leech and not dependent on others and not not sucking from the resources that could be used for other greater purposes.
Ben Loy:Well, I feel like that's a really good place to land unless you have anything else you wanna say on this verse.
Alex Judd:Let's each do one challenge. Like, what's one challenge we we take for ourselves from this that we would then apply to others?
Ben Loy:You go first.
Alex Judd:Very good. I think my challenge is is aspire to live quietly. And what we talked about is what does it look like for your ambition and your aspiration to be smaller? Right? I I, you know, I Brandon Lindsay, he's he's a leader that we're really, really connected to at Hoopho.
Alex Judd:He gave me this band that I wear everywhere, and it's John three thirty, which is John the Baptist saying he must become greater, I must become less. And I I wear it everywhere, but I don't wear it everywhere. You know? I don't take that with me everywhere I go. And and, thankfully, the band helps sometimes to just keep this reminder of, like, he must become greater.
Alex Judd:I must become less. I am not the point. And aspire to live quietly, I think, in direct alignment with that. So bring that more to fruition in my life and leadership. How about you?
Ben Loy:For me, like, to work with your own hands is the one that rings most true to me. And I think it goes I think it goes both ways for me personally. Like, the reality that, like, right now my job involves working a lot at a computer. And in previous seasons, I I haven't done that. And there are parts of that that are there are I mean, so much of that that, like, honors the Lord and it is what God has given me.
Ben Loy:And, like, I am passionate about what I'm doing and I am enjoying it. But then the other thing in this season that I've realized is that I haven't had in previous seasons over the last few years just because of life situations and and moving and things. But, like, this fall and this summer, I summited a mountain in Mexico. I think the second or third tallest mountain in North America. I just did rim to rim to rim in the Grand Canyon.
Ben Loy:And, like, being Like, looking back on those moments and just being like, man, like, I really just greatly enjoy, like, working and and doing things in that way, and challenging myself physically. And, like, understanding that, like, that, especially with other people, like, is so edifying to me and something that I should prioritize more when on the flip side of that, like, I mean, we talk about this all the time, freedom and responsibility, right? Like, understanding the importance of that and then also using that as fuel for, like, the things that I do day to day at work. And so I guess just like, yeah, exploring the balance between those two things and then challenging myself in both of those areas. Like, how can I be stewarding the work I do Mhmm?
Ben Loy:Better? And then also, like, how can I be challenging myself even outside of the work I do in a way that brings other people in and, like, edifies my spirit?
Alex Judd:Love that. Thanks, Ben. Yep. Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.
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